TIED AND SOLDERED

[LANDSURFER74]

I have a pair of wheels built by Charlie Alexander in Cardiff in 1981.
Only used for a couple of hundred miles a year the rims have now started to show signs of terminal cracking.
The wheels are large flange double fixed and tied and soldered.
Used on smooth-ish time trial courses and occasional track outings, i would like another pair.
I realise that wheels of this type are probably regarded as being from the dark ages but if there is anyone who can recommend a builder please drop me a line.

[PW]

I build my own but Chris at Edison Cycles has a good local reputation. Next to the new college in Clowne N. Derbys, about 2miles from junc 30 of the M1.
(01246)812878

[andrew_s]

Probably it's best to try and find a compatible pair of rims (i.e same spoke seat diameter), and do a rim transplant.

Otherwise, tying and soldering is just going to add fairly substantially to the wheel build costs, for no practical benefit.
Tied & soldered wheels are no stiffer (before and after measurements by Jobst brandt), and no stronger (the middle of the spoke isn't generally the problem area), so the only remaining benefit is that if a spoke breaks it stays in place rather than possibly tangling with a mech or something.

[sleeping_menace]

With respect to measurements that have been taken by various people. I was one of the fools at the beginning of the Freeride movement, when that meant hucking and other obscene forms of bike abuse. Regardless of how they measure or not, the wheels with twisted/soldered would last 3x longer than standard ones. Granted, this is an exceptional type of abuse, and really not something done anymore by anyone, but twisting/soldering DOES work.
In particular, I had a pair of Sun Doublewide wheels for 5 straight years (at a time when I'd been going through a few wheelsets per year). my 100kg at the time put those wheels through abuse that none were ever intended to see, but they held up. I know full well they'd not have lasted the same without the twisted/soldered spoke treatment..

just my 2c..

[hubgearfreak]

if there is anyone who can recommend a builder please drop me a line.

you. under my supervision. if you wish to - in lincoln

are the hubs still good? if yes, then you just need to find rims that match. what's the ERD?



and spoke count, obviously

[Gearoidmuar]

With respect to measurements that have been taken by various people. I was one of the fools at the beginning of the Freeride movement, when that meant hucking and other obscene forms of bike abuse. Regardless of how they measure or not, the wheels with twisted/soldered would last 3x longer than standard ones. Granted, this is an exceptional type of abuse, and really not something done anymore by anyone, but twisting/soldering DOES work.
In particular, I had a pair of Sun Doublewide wheels for 5 straight years (at a time when I'd been going through a few wheelsets per year). my 100kg at the time put those wheels through abuse that none were ever intended to see, but they held up. I know full well they'd not have lasted the same without the twisted/soldered spoke treatment..

just my 2c..

If they were tied and soldered that would imply that they were well built, but not because of tying and soldering. That's like saying that Purdey shotguns are great guns because they are decorated.

[hubgearfreak]

That's like saying that Purdey shotguns are great guns because they are decorated.

that's an obscure analogy, wasted on people like me who've only held plastic guns that you fill at the sink

[LANDSURFER74]

36 spoke front and rear, Miche lg flange hubs. i'll measure the 'erd' HGF when i get home

[sleeping_menace]

Actually Purdy shotguns are tacky, gaudy, and usually owned by the same type of [inappropriate word removed] who drives around in his white Range/Land Rover, just to make sure everyone looks at him. Have encountered the type before, and had very little patience for them.

Your clumsy and ill-fitting shotgun analogy aside, tied and soldered were indeed much stronger than standard builds, and this was easily demonstrated against identical hub/spoke/rim combinations (taking into account the slight extra spoke length absorbed by twisting).

[531colin]

There seems to be some confusion...
between tied and soldered, as used on sprint bikes pre-war
and "snowflake" as used by cyclo-crossers in about the fifties(?) later re-invented by mountain bikers
and good wheelbuilding technique, which is neither confined to, or excluded by, either of the above.
(with the caveat that you can't use soft (lead) solder on stainless)

[hubgearfreak]

good wheelbuilding technique, which is neither confined to, or excluded by, either of the above.

well said. i've done 36 crowsfoot, and i've done 2 leading/2 trailing 32/40. both make more than strong enough wheels that are that little bit different just for obtuse's sake. must try snowflake someday, but do you know how to calculate spoke lengths for this?

[531colin]

................ must try snowflake someday, but do you know how to calculate spoke lengths for this?

I've only done the odd one for fun, it was some time ago. I seem to remember I needed longer spokes than my first guess.
36 spoke snowflakes don't look anything, 32 spoke look better because you start to get big empty spaces!

Couple of sites for you....http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp
http://www.astounding.org.uk/ian/wheel/index.html
http://wheelfanatyk.blogspot.com/2010/10/for-spoke-nerds-only.html
http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/

Hmmmm....I did say a couple...the illness is progressing.....

[hubgearfreak]

I seem to remember I needed longer spokes than my first guess.

thanks colin it's that final link that inspired me

i like this from peter white.

The Wheel Rant

Let's be very clear about something. Rims for racing bikes, such as the Mavic Open Pro and Velocity Aerohead, are made for people who use bicycles in races. That's why they're called racing bikes; because people actually race with them! To be a competitive road racer, you will not want to weigh much more than about 160 lbs. Even at that weight, you'll find yourself at a significant disadvantage in many road races, at least those with any hills. Since the manufacturers of racing rims are aware of this fact, they don't bother making these rims strong enough for 230 lb cyclists, regardless of whether those 230 lb cyclists have the curious notion that it would be a good idea to ride a bike with "racing rims" and 23mm tires.

Remember, reality is what it is, regardless of what you read in the cycling magazines.