ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
reohn2
Posts: 45186
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by reohn2 »

u0308863 wrote:I weight about 70 kgs, my tire pressure is 100/105 psi and my commute is from Barking into London mostly on the new cycle path alongside the A13 until I get to the City. I try not to ride too close to the kerb where possible as I know most of the rubish is there and pedestrians often step out in the road. Unfortunately there is a fair bit of glass along the way, so maybe I've just been unlucky.

It was just what this person said to me about lowering the pressure to avoid punctures and wondered if anyone has any experience with it being true.


I'd lower the TP's to around 85F 90R ,you'll loose nothing and only gain comfort, you seem to be doing everything else right.
If the punctures persist I'd change tyres to some a little more robust,say Panaracer RibMo's or Gatorskins,if things don't improve after that I'd find another route if possible :?
You could also contact the local council about the glass etc explaining the inconvenience the state of the cyclepath is causing to see if they'll sweep it regularly.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45186
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by reohn2 »

robgul wrote:My rule of thumb on tyre pressure is what it says on the tyrewall plus about 10% .. on the basis of, hopefully, reducing the risk of flints and thorns puncturing, and for less rolling-resistance and thus less pedalling effort.

If you are getting that many punctures are you sure that you're getting whatever is causing them out of the tyre casing? - you often get flints or thorns that get in the case/tread and only manifest themselves when the tube is inflated into the tyre case - a bit of bending and stretching the case whilst running fingers around inside it may reveal the problem

Rob


Whilst can't agree with Rob on TP's as they're on a combination of load/tyresize/suppleness of tyre casing ie; a light rider for any given tyre will need less PSI than someone 10kgs heavier for the same tyre.

I do agree with him on removing anything from the tyre that are causing the punctures in the first place and checking the rim tape and spoke heads for problems.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45186
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by reohn2 »

cyclingvirtual wrote:lower tyre pressures, ie. 80psi will only increase chance of punctures to to "pinch" punctures. This is where the tyre bottoms on a rut and the tube in pinched between the rim and tyre and splits the tube. Keep them hard 100psi and above


I weigh 80kgs with a bike weight and day bag of 12kgs and ride 28mm Gatorskins and 28mm Paselas @ 85F and 90R.I also run a bike with 35mm Marathon slicks which I run @ 65F,70R.
The tandems (all up weight of 175ish kgs including bike and daybag) are run one with 32mm front and 35mm rear Ribmo's @85psi front and back and one with 32mm Marathon H368's @ 85f and 90R.
I/we've never experience a pince flat/snakebite puncture yet and can count on one hand the number of punctures experienced in the last 5years I/we average 7,500 to 8,500 miles per annnum.
Last edited by reohn2 on 16 Aug 2011, 8:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Elizabethsdad
Posts: 1158
Joined: 15 Jan 2011, 7:09pm

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by Elizabethsdad »

robgul wrote:
u0308863 wrote:Thanks all. I think I will ignore the advice to reduce pressure and put it down to bad luck and a lot of glass on the road. I might try the Marathon Plus next as the smartguard in it is meant to be thicker than the Durano Plus.


... ah, the Marathon Plus - that'll get you into a whole new ball-game trying to fit them! ... lots of threads in various fora about them ... BUT they do seem good, if a bit heavy.

Rob

I have certainly been happy with my Marathon Plus - mind you I am also using green slime inner tubes. I have noticed with the inner tubes that the tyres don't seem to need topping up so frequently, the slime must make the rubber less permeable.
snibgo
Posts: 4604
Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by snibgo »

Punctures have so much (bad) luck involved, that it's difficult to draw sound conclusions. Snake-bites aside, I've never seen a believable explanation about whether high or low pressures are best.

On ordinary Marathons (not Plus), 95/105 PSI, I had no punctures on tour despite accidentally riding through broken glass. But a few days earlier I got a puncture from a thorn when I was wheeling the bike.
MacBludgeon
Posts: 462
Joined: 6 Feb 2009, 4:19pm
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire, UK

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by MacBludgeon »

Have you identified the cause of the puncture each time and the location, ie outside, sidewall or inside? If it's the latter then that would normally indicate a problem around rim tape, spokes, etc.
nuns, no sense of humour
Winkeladvokat
Posts: 177
Joined: 13 Oct 2009, 10:33am

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by Winkeladvokat »

No!!!!! All the advice to keep the tyres pumped hard is wrong!!!!

Pinch flats are caused by low pressure, this is true.

The risk of penetration punctures, on the other hand, increases with higher pressure!!!! The reason: higher pressure increases the force on the little shard of glass, allowing it to do it's dirty work. (pressure = force/area, area of a shard of glass is fixed => more pressure = more force on shard).

25mm tyres unloaded, you should be looking at around 75-85psi, loaded a touch more. 100psi is definitely too high.

As regards rolling resistance, yes, higher pressure reduces casing losses. But higher pressure increases suspension losses on rough (i.e. normal!) roads. There's a balance and, again, I think 100psi for a 25mm is not optimal in this regard, judging by ride quality.
MartinC
Posts: 2135
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by MartinC »

Winkeladvokat wrote:The risk of penetration punctures, on the other hand, increases with higher pressure!!!! The reason: higher pressure increases the force on the little shard of glass, allowing it to do it's dirty work. (pressure = force/area, area of a shard of glass is fixed => more pressure = more force on shard).


I disagree - the force on the shard is the weight of the rider and bike. Can't see that the tyre pressure is relevant.
Winkeladvokat
Posts: 177
Joined: 13 Oct 2009, 10:33am

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by Winkeladvokat »

Sorry, that's wrong. The rider+bike weight is supported by the contact patch on the tyre, and the tyre contact patch size is determined by the contact patch pressure for a given load. (The one subtlety here is that contact patch pressure is not the same as tyre pressure, due to physical properties of the tyre itself but as you increase tyre pressure, contact patch pressure also goes up - find a book on vehicle dynamics if you want to confirm this!). The force a small area on the road experiences is simply given by the contact patch pressure at that point times its area.

The situation you describe (shard experiences full weight of rider) would only occur if there were no deformation of the tyre around the shard, i.e. a perfectly rigid tyres.
MartinC
Posts: 2135
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by MartinC »

You're right. I guess I had in mind a "no deformation" scenario i.e. where the shard is the only contact point. What this brings to mind is how the deformation works and how it relates to the puncture process. I'd need convincing now that there's a simple relationship between tyre pressure and puncture potential. There may be many scenarios and the tyre pressure affects them differently. So we'd need to know how frequent they were and in what circumstances they happened.

For example, does deformation actually contribute to the process? If a puncture isn't a one hit process but happens with repeated impacts for each wheel revolution then deformation may aid the process of embedding the shard in the tyre initially to facilitate this happening.

I think you've convinced me that the most important contribution tyre pressure makes may not be just in the straightforward application of pressures to the shard!
Winkeladvokat
Posts: 177
Joined: 13 Oct 2009, 10:33am

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by Winkeladvokat »

MartinC wrote:then deformation may aid the process of embedding the shard in the tyre initially to facilitate this happening.


In which case the contact pressure goes down. I.e. given a give contact pressure distribution with no foreign objects/deformation, the question is what's the degree of deformation and what is the delta (positive) in the contact pressure? You can't get a situation where you get *less* contact pressure than the case of perfect deformation. Thus, increasing pressure can only serve to increase penetration force.
MartinC
Posts: 2135
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by MartinC »

It seems intuitive to me that there's a relationship between pressure and penetration - so happy to take that as a given. What I don't understand is what other factors contribute to penetration and how they're affected by tyre pressure. Without knowing that I wouldn't like to say that I know the mechanism that predicts that lower or higher tyre pressures contribute to punctures.

I'm reminded of the old party trick - can you hammer a needle through a steel sheet. You can if you put the needle through a cork to support it. It's not the force from the hammer that's most important but other mechanical factors.

In my experience keeping my pressures high seems to reduce punctures and I know many others who echo that experience. But you're right - a simple model of pressure on the shard would seem to predict otherwise. On reflection I think that model's too simple.
snibgo
Posts: 4604
Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by snibgo »

Increasing pressure will decrease the contact area, which will increase the pressure (and force) on a given piece of glass. However, it will also decrease the probability of running over a given piece of glass.
Winkeladvokat
Posts: 177
Joined: 13 Oct 2009, 10:33am

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by Winkeladvokat »

MartinC wrote:It seems intuitive to me that there's a relationship between pressure and penetration - so happy to take that as a given. What I don't understand is what other factors contribute to penetration and how they're affected by tyre pressure. Without knowing that I wouldn't like to say that I know the mechanism that predicts that lower or higher tyre pressures contribute to punctures.

I'm reminded of the old party trick - can you hammer a needle through a steel sheet. You can if you put the needle through a cork to support it. It's not the force from the hammer that's most important but other mechanical factors.

In my experience keeping my pressures high seems to reduce punctures and I know many others who echo that experience. But you're right - a simple model of pressure on the shard would seem to predict otherwise. On reflection I think that model's too simple.


I disagree, you can draw good conclusions from simple models with imperfect knowledge, as long as you know the order of the error you're likely incurring. You don't need to be precise to be able to make a call as to the likely trend. Simply: bit of rubber/kevlar and something sharp. The more you push, the more likely it is to go in. The only way that increasing pressure (i.e. increasing the push) would not result in higher penetration risk would be if there was a secondary (compensating) effect of greater order. I simply can't conceive what that might be, it goes against basic physics (e.g. less deformation might result in higher local pressure spikes->highly unlikely; lower pressures reduce deformation->highly unlikely). Thus I'll stick with my initial conclusions, while awaiting new knowledge. Occam's Razor and all that!

My experience is different anyway - the big jump for me with reduced punctures came when I started doing many more miles on 25mms as opposed to 23mm tyres previously (and the corresponding 15-20psi drop in pressure). If pressure played no role, then all other things being equal, I'd have expected an increase in punctures due to the larger contact patch (hence increase in road area/glass bits I was coming into contact with. That wasn't the case.

And anyway, this misses another massive point: if you're running 25mm tyres at 100psi, you're not doing yourself any favours in terms of grip, ride quality or rolling resistance!!!
Winkeladvokat
Posts: 177
Joined: 13 Oct 2009, 10:33am

Re: ROAD TIRE PRESSURE AND PUNCTURES

Post by Winkeladvokat »

snibgo wrote:Increasing pressure will decrease the contact area, which will increase the pressure (and force) on a given piece of glass. However, it will also decrease the probability of running over a given piece of glass.


Marginally. The contact patch increases quite a bit more in length than in width with a reduction in pressure.
Post Reply