compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

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rbe
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compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by rbe »

Several folks responding to my OP in another area ('return to cycling in relative ill-health...') have got me thinkig about the Brompton folding cycle. As I mentioned therein, I was most interested, at first, in the mixte frame idea as a solution to my road-bike mount/dismount issues. I am, still, looking into that. But, the more I thought about it, the more I began to wonder about the 'folder', as cited by some.

A folder would actually work fairly well for my current life-style (we spend about a third of each year in an RV escaping the winter weather) and I hate the idea of leaving bikes potentially exposed in the bike-rack - folders would, presumably, fit into the 'basement'. Snug and dry.

But those tiny wheels...and what about the gearing? What does that say about the performance? My style of riding has been to tackle hills in lowest (e.g., 'granny') gear and go slowly - just enough to stay upright - while, on more level terrain (and depending, of course, on the wind) I would seek to maintain a comfortable-to-me, ground-covering gear. It was good for me - I have, literally, never walked-up a hill (well, not with a bike) - and I've climbed more than a few so steep the big problem for me was to keep the front wheel in contact with the roadway! I was a touring cyclist, not a racer, but hundred-mile days were not uncommon and - while my current emphasis may well have shifted to just trying to get in better shape - I still wish to believe my bike is doing the best that can be done in aid of making touring (e.g. - My Goal) pleasurable.

I find myself imagining one just MUST need work harder to cover a given distance with tiny wheels - but I don't really understand the physics (or mechanics) of the problem. And, I can't figure out what gears (i.e., for instance, how many 'inches'?) are available with the Brompton 'six-speed'.

My method is to count the teeth in the largest freewheel and the smallest chainwheel to discover how 'near-granny' is my low-gear combo. And the actual size of the bike wheel plays a significant role in determining those 'inches' (e.g., my 27" road-bike wheel has a much larger circumference - thus a greater distance covered over the ground in one revolution - than a 16" 'folder' wheel.

But I can't figure out if that has any real bearing on 'ease-of-pedaling' sensation. Nor what the proper way to compare such a subjective concept (as my 'making touring pleasurable' standard, above) between my road bike and the Brompton might be.

For sure, having a 16" physical wheel will mean that the gear-produced 'practical' (or 'phantom?') wheel-size in inches will be comparatively low. If that freewheel-to-chainwheel tooth ratio were (an almost impossibly low) 1 to 1, the resulting 'granny gear' would be 27" on my road bike - while the same ratio would produce a miniscule 16" 'granny gear' on the Brompton. Except, maybe, there is NO freewheel on a Brompton? (I truly do not understand how a three-speed, let alone six-speed, shifter system works in this regard nor, now that I think about it, exactly what 'freewheel' means). I would LOVE to learn what those six Bromptom gears translate to - in inches - and how to do the math.

I still can't get past the fundamental concept that I would have to push the pedals around twice on the Brompton to cover about the same distance over the ground as I could achieve with one pedal revolution on my road bike, regardless of the gear. Nor can I decide whether or not those two Brompton-pedal revolutions would be more or less work than the one road-bike-pedal revolution. I know it comes down to the power of the 'engine', in some respect. That is, if the engine were not running poorly because of 'valve trouble' (as mine) AND was practically un-limited in capacity (as is NO human's), then the idea would be to push the highest gear attainable at all times - think how much faster one might go in a 120" gear. But, unlike the diesel-engine in my RV, my personal engine has much more finite limitations. Always has. So I prefer 'granny gears' for hills. I just can't decide if I'm trying to compare apples to oranges here.

Then there is the question of lost-energy due to lack of frame rigidity. One of the issues I have perceived in consideration of a mixte frame (OTHER than the stigma of riding a 'girls-bike' I mean) is that the mixte frame causes potentially less pedal energy to be transferred to forward motion AND contributes to excess frame weight. I wonder if a similar factor is present for the Brompton's folding-frame? And, BTW, what about MY weight? In my touring days, formerly, I came in about 200 lbs. Today it is, well, higher. :( Is there a maximum-capacity for the Brompton?

I have moved this post to this area because it seems more bike-technical in nature (than the former thread). Folks who have direct experience comparing 'folders' and road-bikes, and any knowlegeable about Bromptons in particular, are especially sought. But all opinions - however formed - would be worth reading and helpful to me.

robert
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Oceanic
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by Oceanic »

This bit of software will answer some of your questions...

http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/k_gear.shtml
pherron
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by pherron »

From a Brompton press release, this is the standard gearing on the 6 speed:

A 16-tooth and a 13-tooth sprocket with the BWR hub with a 50-tooth chain wheel, will give the following distances of travel:

Gear 1 33.0 gear inches (2.63 metres along the ground)
Gear 2 40.5 gear inches (3.23 metres travel)
Gear 3 51.5 gear inches (4.11 metres travel)
Gear 4 63.5 gear inches (5.06 metres travel)
Gear 5 81.0 gear inches (6.45 metres travel)
Gear 6 99.5 gear inches (7.94 metres travel)

You can specify a smaller chainring down to 44 teeth; that gives you a low of 28 inches but a high of only 85. You can do all the calculations yourself using this http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/. It even lists the Brompton 3 speed hub in the options.

In terms of riding small wheels, it's not a problem. It doesn't feel like you are peddling twice as much to go a given distance because you're in a higher gear than you would be with a larger wheel. Peddling feels just the same. I ride a Brompton and a Moulton as well as a 700c tourer. You just fit bigger chainrings and smaller sprockets on small wheeled bikes (I have a 58 tooth ring on my Moulton and I'm not super human!). The small wheels feel more lively and accelerate faster. With a narrow high pressure tyre (good choice for 16") it can roll nearly as well as a 700c. The frame of a Brompton is not as stiff as a tourer though. Personally I wouldn't choose to do long distances on my Brompton as it rides more like a utility bike. That said people do tour on them.
Malaconotus
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by Malaconotus »

Gear inches are gear inches, regardless of the size of the wheels, so that part of the equation is even. 6-speed Brompton standard spec is 33 inches to 99 inches. You can specify the Brompton to have a 12% lower gear range, giving 29 inches to 87 inches. You won't get your granny gear and it isn't built or designed for climbing. If I lived in Halifax or Pateley Bridge I wouldn't want one.

All other things being equal, small wheels are lighter for the same strength, and thus faster. Many speed records were set on Moultons, and if it were allowed by the UCI, I would expect 20" or even 16" wheels to be common in the velodrome. But on any uneven surface, larger wheels roll better, and a bigger wheeled bike flows over the bumps better which explains the new fad for 29er's (mountain bikes with 700C or 'road' sized rims)

The Brompton is an upright ride, and it won't be as efficient on longer rides as a tourer, obviously. That isn't what it is designed for, after all. But it is more capable than you might imagine. There's a video somewhere of two blokes traversing Shetland by Brompton and folding canoe.

Weight limit is 110Kg, or 242 pounds.

Brompton's FAQ covers much of this... http://www.brompton.co.uk/technical/#5
Jonty

Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by Jonty »

The main advantage of a Brompton is its abilty to fold into a small size so that it can be carried easily and transported on public transport. It is therefore mainly a commuting bike but having said that some people do long rides on them.
They are well made and ride very well but certainly not as well as a touring bike IMO. If intending to tour on a Brompton who would be advised to get the 6 geared version with a 12% reduction which as has been said will give you a lowest low gear of about 28 inches which could be restrictive in hilly terrain depending on your fitness.
The small wheeled unisex bike which rides like a touring bike is the Moutlon TSR which doesn't fold but separates into two. (See Moulton Bicycle Company website). This come in various forms and IMO the most versatile is the TSR 27 which gives a range of 21 to 110 inches.
Both Bromptons and Moultons come with an excellent range of luggage.
Google Folding Society to obtain reviews of folding bikes.
There is a Yahoo Moulton Bicycle Forum and a Yahoo Brompton Forum which are free to join. The Brompton website is excellent.
jonty
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Oceanic
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by Oceanic »

I have a friend who tours with camping gear on a Brompton (!).

He uses a Schlumph drive to increase the range of gearing (the software I linked to above can do the Schlumpf calculations as well as the Brompton 6 speed ones).
LollyKat
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by LollyKat »

Kinetics also offer various modifications to Bromptons to give a wider and/or lower set of gears, e.g. with a Rohloff hub or using a Schlumpf Mountain or Speed Drive you could go down to 19" or lower.

However it is true to say that the Brompton is a bit flexible when you pull on the handlebars. I have an old 5-speed one and have not done more than 30 miles at a time on it. OTOH those were just half day runs in poor conditions on hilly Skye, and I could easily have doubled the distance if I had had all day. It is a comfortable ride and though not high performance it gets you there.

The Brompton is brilliant at folding/unfolding quickly for use with other transport. For high performance though the Moulton is regarded as the best.
Last edited by LollyKat on 27 Aug 2011, 10:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
JJF
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by JJF »

There are other folding bikes. I have a Bike Friday New World Tourist (NWT) which I bought in 1998. Wheels are 20" (406mm)
It has a low step thro' height which rbe is looking for.
I chose this model after a trial proved to me that it had a good quality ride suitable for touring distances. It also had a strong recommendation from the CJ, the CTC technical officer. He described it (Cycle mag Feb/Mar 1995) as a "genuine performance bicycle...".
My bike had 21 gears from about 23" to about 90" (I've changed them so I can't remember exactly).
I use conventional panniers or a large Carradice saddle bag
However, specs have changed so you would need to look at www.bikefriday.com
The folded size is much larger than the Brompton.
Ugly
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by Ugly »

Many speed records were set on Moultons Quote from an earlier post

Which ones?

John Woodburn's Holyhead-London is the only one I can think of. I am sure no Road Time Trial records have been beaten on a small wheeled cycle.
pherron
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by pherron »

Ugly wrote:Many speed records were set on Moultons Quote from an earlier post
Which ones?


The world unpaced cycling record over 200m (conventional riding position) in 1985. The speed attained was 50.21mph (80.79kph), the bicycle was an Alex Moulton AM. Jim Glover, broke the record again in 1986, on a new improved Moulton Liner. The new record, 51.29mph (82.53kph), still stands.

I don't think 'many' is necessarily appropriate but they do go very well. They are performance machines and demonstrate that small wheels are not inherently slower, which some cyclists seem to believe. I think that was the point being made.
andyh2
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by andyh2 »

Brompton wide ratio 6 speed gearing gives about the same range as a wide range cassette with a single chainring. ie about 300%. Modern touring bikes often have double that at around 600%. If you're not touring with a load and/or aren't bothered about pedalling downhill a 300% range is often sufficient.

I have a Brompton. It's great for mixed mode transport with buses or trains and scooting around town picking up groceries. Don't need a lock as you can bring it inside with you and the luggage options are practical and easy to use. Parts are readily available, unlike say some Dahon bikes. The flexiness at the bars and the rear suspension mean that it's more comfortable than you might expect with 16" wheels. You can choose the saddle you like obviously, but the bars and reach customisation is pretty limited if you want to maintain the fold. You can get a stiffer suspension block, but even with that I find that you need a very smooth pedalling style (smoother than I've got anyway) to avoid pogoing as cadence goes up.

I've recently got a Xootr swift- http://www.xootr.com/folding-bicycle.html

The Brompton beats it hands down for folded size, but I find the Xootr ride quality much better. Most of the parts are standard so it's easy to customise, bars, stems, gearing etc. The step through is not as low as the Brompton, but better than a diamond frame. Great tyre choice as it's same as BMX size 20" wheels. Kojaks or similar pumped up for smooth roads, 2" Big Apples for rough roads, knobblies for tracks, studded for ice etc.
gilesjuk
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by gilesjuk »

Used to ride miles years ago on a BMX. No gears on those either.
Malaconotus
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by Malaconotus »

Ugly wrote:Many speed records were set on Moultons Quote from an earlier post

Which ones?

John Woodburn's Holyhead-London is the only one I can think of. I am sure no Road Time Trial records have been beaten on a small wheeled cycle.


I was going on memory, and am no historian of cycling speed feats, but this link seems to back me up... http://www.moultonbuzz.com/2007/07/aero ... d-bicycle/

"The Moulton–Milliken collaboration led to the development of fully streamlined bicycles, using the conventional riding position, which twice broke a speed record. The record mentioned is of course the world unpaced cycling record over 200m (conventional riding position) in 1985. The speed attained was 50.21mph (80.79kph), the bicycle was an Alex Moulton AM. Jim Glover, broke the record again in 1986, on a new improved Moulton Liner. The new record, 51.29mph (82.53kph), still stands."

Moulton's own site claims several historical records... http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/heritage.html
Malaconotus
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by Malaconotus »

This helpful list on LFGSS shows the Xootr also has a higher weight limit than any folder expect the Bike Friday with the extra cost of the 'heavy rider option'... http://www.lfgss.com/thread3747.html
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531colin
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Re: compare/contrast Brompton and road bike

Post by 531colin »

How can you compare the ride of a Brompton with the ride of a 700c touring bike?

The Brompton rides about as well as my tourer folds!

They're sort of made for different uses......its like comparing an umbrella with a pair of wellington boots......which will keep you drier?
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