French thread HS - Fool me once...

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fenderbender
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French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby fenderbender » 24 Feb 2012, 5:54pm

Just checked and it seems I've yet again been duped into buying a Stronglight A9 type headset with the wrong french thread. The plan was to fit it on my Mercian tonight but the work of putting it back together after service has grinded to a halt.
Is there a solution to this like re-threading the headset or could I just bodge it?
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Stronglight headset 1'' new 10€ 1-s.jpg
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Brucey
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby Brucey » 24 Feb 2012, 6:03pm

only if you have a 1" x 24tpi thread tapping tool.....

25mm x 1mm won't go.... ooops!

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PW
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby PW » 24 Feb 2012, 11:48pm

Or an old A9 in the scrapbox.... The needle rollers and races from the French one should fit the rest of the old English unit. So as we can't get the things in English anymore where did that come from? :wink:
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!

pete75
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby pete75 » 25 Feb 2012, 9:48am

If I was sold the wrong sort of head set I'd take it back and exchange for the right one.
If that isn't possible sell the wrong one on EBay and http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b2s115p489

PW
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby PW » 25 Feb 2012, 10:28am

The Spa ones are the new type with ball bearings. The one in the pics is the old style needle roller with a separate race for them to run on. The two are not compatible and as far as I know the old type is discontinued, though it was the better design by a street.
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!

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fenderbender
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby fenderbender » 25 Feb 2012, 10:43am

Thank's for your replies! I would take it back if I could but I found both in the classifieds. Buying a used set and transfer the bearings is probably best. Problem is that once properly fitted they rarely wear out!
A furore normannorum libera nos domine!

Brucey
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby Brucey » 25 Feb 2012, 11:03am

If the stack height is OK then I'd get one of these;

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tange-levin-cds-1-inch-chrome-steel-cup-threaded-headset-prod10953/

this is a pretty bomb-proof headset and now (finally) comes with effective seals; you can see the seals here;

http://www.velosolo.co.uk/tangelevin.html

One of these (if not overtightened or otherwise abused) will probably last a lifetime. This version of the Levin design is based on the beautiful 'Record' track headset and is pretty near as good in most respects, if not better. Every bike I have owned that has been fitted with one of these (or similar) has steered beautifully.

The A9 headset has its advocates I know but I am not one of them and for good reason. If you haven't fitted one you have just dodged a bullet in my view....

cheers
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PW
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby PW » 25 Feb 2012, 11:12am

If you're on 1" A-Head the A9 or the Cane Creek is about all there is. The roller A9 we've had no bother with and that's since.....2003 I think.
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!

Brucey
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby Brucey » 25 Feb 2012, 11:32am

OPs headset is threaded.

Re threadless; SJS list about eight different 1" threadless headsets, and here;

http://www.velosolo.co.uk/shopmisc.html

there are a couple, including one with needle rollers, if this is what you must have...

Needle rollers in headsets I believe fall into the category of things that are 'neither necessary nor desirable'.

cheers
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PW
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby PW » 25 Feb 2012, 11:38am

Velosolo, I'll remember that thanks.
I like the needle rollers because the roller unit and race are independently replaceable, and given a decent amount of grease, especially in the bottom, they seem to last ... er a long time (do we have headset fairies??) :lol:
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!

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fenderbender
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby fenderbender » 25 Feb 2012, 11:41am

The Levin and new A9 with cartridge bearings are good looking but so is the early Shimano Dura Ace fitted. But it has a tendency to shimmy and more than once have I read that the needle berings is a good cure. So if anyone have a used A9 or Miche HS now is your chance! :D
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Brucey
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby Brucey » 25 Feb 2012, 11:46am

One of the things I don't like about the roller bearing headsets is that the motion is very slightly damped.... but if you really can't fix a worrying shimmy any other way, maybe a roller bearing headset is a good idea.

Any more details of components/loadings associated with the shimmy? Often a problem at the back of the bike can help promote a shimmy....

Dura-Ace headset, very nice too....I have that model in black which is about as rare as rocking horse poop...

cheers
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fenderbender
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby fenderbender » 25 Feb 2012, 12:48pm

Nice find Brusey! That black version was rare even as new. Haven't had much load in the back apart from a half full Barley. But the bike calms down when I fill up the handlebar bag. So that's why I'm fairly convinced needle bearing could be a the right cure. But your probably right that it may causes a the bike to feel a bit woody. It's set up for audax so I'd like it to be steady enough for me let go of long enough to open some snacks or slip a vest on while riding. Here's some new pics I took so you can confirm the spec on the boxes. Left one look like a cheaper version of the A9 but they are the same internally and both bottom races are marked 26.4.
Image Attachments
DSC_0043-s.jpg
DSC_0038-s.jpg
DSC_0033-s.jpg
A furore normannorum libera nos domine!

Brucey
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby Brucey » 25 Feb 2012, 1:28pm

it looks like you have enough pieces there to have some spare parts when the roller bearings corrode (which is the other thing that happens with these bearings esp on bikes with no mudguards...

Re the shimmy; there will be a road speed (different for every bike) at which a shimmy is likely. I have a favourite hill which I use to test my bikes on; riding no hands the speed increases gradually and a shimmy can be provoked. Adding mass to the bike in various places can damp the shimmy or change the speed at which the shimmy occurs. Sitting up, leaning forwards, putting one hand on the bars etc can often stop the shimmy.

Shimmies can be more violent with flexible wheels, flexible frames etc. The other thing that can 'help' a shimmy to develop is if there is any out-of roundness, out of true-ness, or out of balance in the wheels; this can help to 'drive' a bad resonance.

If the roller bearing headset works and eliminates the shimmy, it'll be working like a steering damper on a motorcycle. I've had (on a normally sweet-handling bike) a 'tankslapper' at 90mph in 3rd as the front end lifted up on a bumpy road with a small crest; it was absolutely terrifying, and all I could do to keep the throttle pinned. A friend described my bike as 'looking like a startled whitebait'... :shock: After that, I became somewhat less worried about shimmies on bicycles...

Do let us know if you fix yours

cheers
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pete75
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Re: French thread HS - Fool me once...

Postby pete75 » 25 Feb 2012, 3:15pm

PW wrote:The Spa ones are the new type with ball bearings. The one in the pics is the old style needle roller with a separate race for them to run on. The two are not compatible and as far as I know the old type is discontinued, though it was the better design by a street.


That doesn't matter if you're fitting a new headset.

Are you sure the needle roller design was better? In a post about Stronglight Jobst Brand says " I also notice that they are still offering the disproven needle head bearing, apparently under the belief that bearing failure is from Brinelling, which it is not.
Not only that, but needle bearings are noted for binding because the needle complement becomes
un-centered with use. They are not immune to fretting dimples. I have examples."