Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

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PW
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby PW » 6 Mar 2012, 9:01pm

I suspect my 953 ended up with a very similar gearing to Mick's Mercian, but from a different route.
For that bike I wanted something which had the performance gears of a fairly recent stage racing machine, plus a granny set to cope with the Peak in my old age - I have health problems which weren't there a while ago. I also detest overdished, weak rear wheels but have a liking for Campag Ergos. Being a Nerd of the first order I set about working out the answers at playtime.
Taking the last problem first it has to be a Shimergo set-up and No1 Son being a fashion victim moaned about putting an mtb mech on a "good bike" so I decided to humour him. The rear hub is an Ultegra with the 135mm OLN rear axle from an old type XT mountain hub - spare in the shed. An extra 5mm spacer on the non drive side reduced the dish. The shifters/mechs are 10 speed 2,006 Chorus with SRAM cassette/chain and a JTEK Shiftmate for the indexing, chainset a Stronglight Speedlight triple. As above 48/38/24 (originally 26 inner but I'm not well as I said) with 11-28, changed from 11-26 for the same reason.
So I have nominally 118"-23". The top gear is near enough the roadie top of 53X12, the outer/middle rings give most of a hilly racing set from say 5-10 years ago and the inner will cope with most places if travelling light - that bike has just a Carradice wedge pack under the saddle.
I think that fits Micks criteria of *Warp Drive, Granny Gear and As Many as You can Cram in the Middle*, but biased towards quick runs in lumpy territory.
What do you think Mick? :D
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!

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Mick F
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Mick F » 6 Mar 2012, 9:08pm

Love it.
Warp Drive and Granny! :D

The sooner we cyclists demand what we want, rather than have what we're given, the better.
It's not that long ago when you could get individual sprockets. I've done it with my Miche cassette, but it costs dosh. Suntour Ultra didn't cost a great deal and most LBSs had them.
Mick F. Cornwall

Ribblehead
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Ribblehead » 7 Mar 2012, 12:11am

Mick F wrote:It's not that long ago when you could get individual sprockets. I've done it with my Miche cassette, but it costs dosh. Suntour Ultra didn't cost a great deal and most LBSs had them.


Does anyone sell individual sprockets for Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo? I suppose it depends what manufacturers designate as the lowest-replaceable-unit. For a sprocket its normally the cassette.

We're supposed to be saving the planet, but look how much stuff gets thrown out because spares are only available at a very high level.

MacBludgeon
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby MacBludgeon » 7 Mar 2012, 1:07am

Mick F wrote:I say again.
Pick the lowest gear you need, pick the highest gear you want, and stack as many as you can get in the middle.

Pick what suits.


I agree with parts 1 and 2 but not so much 3 as that comes down to riding preference, it could be better expressed as:-

pick the lowest gear you need, pick the lowest high gear you need and see how few you can get away with in the middle.

Your way works best for those that try to match gear to cadence, my way would be more suited to those that are happy to match cadence to gear. Or you could describe it as maximising performance versus maximising utility. It really does depend on what you want the bike to be able to do. For example when I still had a long commute I started out with 27 gears, then a 9 speed hub gear and, near the end, switched to a 3 speed hub gear. If I still had that commute I might even be on SS or fixed by now, though I suspect I'd have stayed at 3 gears.

A lot of people do a lot of miles on SS/Fixed and anything from 60" to 75" seems to be the favoured gearing. If you grab a 3 speed you can set it up for gear 2 or 3 to be the favoured ratio and then have either 1 above and 1 below or 2 below. Personally I tried the 1 up 1 down approach first but decided that the 2 below would be more useful.
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Brucey
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Brucey » 7 Mar 2012, 2:10am

I think Mick's gearing priorities may derive from his 'mostly hills with some possibility of flatness' terrain; for other folk it may be 'mostly flattish with various hills thrown in', or other combination which may be served with a similar range, but with different priorities within it.

I have noted a couple of things which I find interesting;

1) even with a wide range of gears/cassettes available, we still want different ones; and

2) people can end up with very similar gears, but prioritise and use them somewhat differently.

The lack of individual sprockets is, I think, in part because the cycle trade sees the need to be able to supply and/or fit parts that are definitely going to 'fix' a worn transmission; that boils down to 'all new' pdq. The same philosophy means many bike shops will only 'fix' punctures using new tubes, too.

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Mick F » 7 Mar 2012, 7:53am

Ribblehead wrote:Does anyone sell individual sprockets for Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo? I suppose it depends what manufacturers designate as the lowest-replaceable-unit. For a sprocket its normally the cassette.
You can buy individual sprockets for Campag, because I've asked Mercian to check. They can get them, but they wouldn't recommend it coz it's prohibitively expensive.

I asked Highpath the same question.

Best thing is to buy a whole cassette. Highpath don't do 10sp because they got too many complaints when they did them, though they will do them if you accept that the timing cannot be guaranteed to give faultless gear changes.

So there you are, you are stuck with stock cassettes and you're stuck with the ratio offerings. I didn't want Campag's offerings, so I looked into other makes and couldn't find what I wanted. ie 10sp 12-29 in realistic steps. ie 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 20, 22, 25, 29 Campag do one similar in 11sp, but that would have needed new Ergos at least!

Therefore I asked on Campyonly forum and a chap in USA suggested Miche. I said that all I could get in UK in Miche was a daft complete cassette. 12t then 14t! What happened to 13t? :shock:

So this chap in USA sent me what I wanted plus spacers and I paid him through Paypal. It wasn't cheap - mainly because of the postage from USA. £104.83. Not astronomical, but not cheap, and at least I got what I wanted. If and when it gets worn, I can replace only the worn sprockets too. (That can't be bad!)
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Mick F » 7 Mar 2012, 8:44am

Mick F wrote:Therefore I asked on Campyonly forum and a chap in USA suggested Miche. I said that all I could get in UK in Miche was a daft complete cassette. 12t then 14t! What happened to 13t? :shock:

So this chap in USA sent me what I wanted plus spacers and I paid him through Paypal. It wasn't cheap - mainly because of the postage from USA. £104.83. Not astronomical, but not cheap, and at least I got what I wanted. If and when it gets worn, I can replace only the worn sprockets too. (That can't be bad!)
Just found the thread.
http://www.campyonly.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... f=4&t=2091
It seems my memory has slipped.
It was the 14t cog that was missing from the stock Miche cassette.

To follow on from that thread, as the cogs have worn, they don't change too well mid-cassette on the way up the block. Perhaps cog 4/5/6.

Coming back down, there are no issues.
Mick F. Cornwall

tatanab
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby tatanab » 7 Mar 2012, 9:13am

Mick F --------- I am trying Miche at the moment, like you I want non standard combinations. I found only one place in the UK selling a limited number at about £10 each, but I also found http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/pag ... om=ACCUEIL in France selling the whole range of Miche individual sprockets and spacers (so I have Shimano sprockets with Campag spacing) at typically 4.50 Euros each which means you can build a cassette of 10 for about £50. The sprockets and spacers are in different categories in their list, so the easiest way to find aything is simply to dial up Miche under the manufacturers search. Delivery took about 4 days by post. I've used XXCycle several times over the last few years for various bits.

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Mick F
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Mick F » 7 Mar 2012, 9:28am

Thanks for that link!
However, they don't do a 12t.

I've bookmarked it for future reference.

I took Evans' word for it, that they couldn't get individual sprockets.
Mick F. Cornwall

tatanab
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby tatanab » 7 Mar 2012, 9:35am

Mick F wrote:However, they don't do a 12t.

I assume you have Campag hubs http://www.xxcycle.com/first-position-c ... ds,,en.php

Ayesha
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Ayesha » 7 Mar 2012, 10:21am

46T crankset. 20T sprocket on a SA AW3 in a 20" wheel bike.

24T sprocket, two links of chain, a split link, a small screwdriver and a spanner in the toolkit.

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Mick F
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Mick F » 7 Mar 2012, 10:53am

tatanab wrote:I assume you have Campag hubs http://www.xxcycle.com/first-position-c ... ds,,en.php

Yes.
What does "first position" and "second position" mean with these sprockets?
They can go on in any order you want!

The only difference is the outer sprocket and the inner sprocket. The middle eight are identical.
Mick F. Cornwall

tatanab
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby tatanab » 7 Mar 2012, 11:05am

Mick F wrote:What does "first position" and "second position" mean with these sprockets?

The first sprocket incorporates an in built metal spacer. The last sprocket is cranked/dished for 10 speed. I think this last is true. I could not get the size I wanted so I use a flat last position from 8 speed which works fine.
If you read the instructions under the sprocket link you will see it says--
To make a cassette
One first sprocket
Second sprockets as required (8 to make a 10 speed), yes they fill all middle positions.
One last sprocket
Spacers ((colour for Campag or Shimano) Campag are the blue ones) as required. 8 for a 10 speed because first sprocket incorporates a spacer.
Lock ring.

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Mick F
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby Mick F » 7 Mar 2012, 1:27pm

Yes, I know that, or at least I sussed it.
It's just that the description seems daft.

"Outer Sprockets"
"Inner Sprockets"
.... is all that is needed with these sprockets.
First and Second position description is to do with timing and ramps. The list should go on to Third, Fourth, Fifth etc.

Going back to my Suntour Ultra days, the First Position sprocket was very different to the rest - it had a flange and the threads were narrow. Then you had Second, Third and Fourth all with the same screw threads, then Fifth and Sixth which had splines. Also, the spacers were different diameters. When I went on to Ultra Seven, the "Outer" sprocket became different again! It had an "Outer-Outer" screwed onto it with a narrower thread again.

Contrast this to a modern cassette. The sprockets are all different and all relate to each other both up and down, that is why it's usually best to buy a whole new one. The Miche cassette, however, doesn't care which sprocket goes where - except for the Inner and Outer of course, but First and Second are the wrong words.

Just taken my cassette off and looked.
The outer sprocket - 12t says nothing on it
The inner sprocket - 29t says "last position".


EDIT:
Oops :oops:
Just found they do a "Last Position" too! :oops:
Sorry. :oops:
Mick F. Cornwall

g00se
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Re: Gear Choice For touring etc.; what suits you and why?

Postby g00se » 7 Mar 2012, 2:07pm

Mick - just saw these:

It's a campag 12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-25-29 but it's unclear whether it's for a shimano or campag freehub.

https://www.roba-bikeparts.com/shop/Sprocket-Sets/Sprocket-Set-Miche-10-speed-12-29-Campagnolo--317.html?XTCsid=911514c77251465c162ffc119914d76e