Value of Dawes Sardar

[Nigeyy]

I think I'm in the Sardar cult; love mine -but have BB7 road discs on it with road levers. My friend had a Surly LHT, and while they are nice, in comparison to a Sardar, well, there's no comparison IMHO. If a Sardar is a slow bike, just my opinion, but an LHT is positively glacial.

[freebooter]

TBH I don't think that Dawes would have claimed (well, they sort of did but it was marketing hype) that the Sardar is a RTW exp bike. For that you would go to Thorn and spend twice as much. It has a similar spec to the Galaxy. What marks the Sardar out IMV is its sheer versatility and the way that it will cover the same ground as hybrids, MTBs, trekking bikes and touring bikes. This is why the drop bars, riding position and mudguards are as important as the ability to take wide tyres: I used mine to get to smart appointments (= mudguards), cover seventy miles a day on the open road (= drops, light steel frame and riding position) and lug loads of gear (= proper braze-ons for racks), all on the same trip. But it will also take the rough and tumble of urban cycling. Would that take it round the world? Well maybe, maybe not. The Sardar is the victim of over specialisation in bikes on the one hand and I think a nervousness on the part of many new cyclists to consider more than local shopping trips on a trekking bike.

BTW I also have a suspicion that the second hand Galaxy market is buoyed up by LeJoggers and the Sardar falls the wrong side of the touring/road bike sector. It is interesting that Dawes brought out the Vanguard, but not in 26" and the Nomad with a 26" option but with expensive hub gears. However they must know their market better than I do.

I think the Sardar would do pretty well on a rtw trip. Then again so would a galaxy and many other bikes. However the Sardar has the advantages of the wheel size, tyre capacity and choice of brake systems. Here is an account of someone who cycled Alaska to Argentina on a Sardar.

http://www.davestravelpages.com/equipme ... ardar.html

I don't really understand how Surly managed to make their touring bikes 'cool' and popular when Dawes were just seen as old fashioned.

[Nigeyy]

Well I have a couple of theories with the LHT as to how they became popular. Anyway, first, right out of the hat, they are very good bikes -they are purpose built quality tourers.

At least over in the States, the LHT was (or still is) one of the cheapest touring bikes you can get -around $1200 ready to ride, but not so long ago they were under a $1000. And they sold the frame separately for a lot less, about $350-$400. What did this do? I think they cornered the market pretty quickly for people looking for a serious touring bike with little to no modifications needed (e.g. other touring bikes were either less well equipped with higher more road-like gearing or more expensive). Further, since touring types tend to be mechanically inclined, it was easier to at least just buy the frame, and build it at your leisure (let's forget the economics of that one for just one minute, the point is, you could at least start). Surly filled a great little market niche is the States, and did it well. What also helped was Surly was owned by QBP (an almost ubiquitous bicycle parts supplier for bike stores) -this allowed for almost any bike store in the US to order the bike -not bad built in distribution, eh? And did I forget the cool web site where gnarly lookin' dudes with baggy clothing are photographed freakin' bein' as cool as ice? (ugh). Anyone who didn't know the full picture or didn't read the fine print carefully would be taken in to thinking Surly was a small time custom frame maker, making quality touring frames in the good Ole US of A in some Chicago-like inner city area.

Given all this, it didn't take long before LHTs got a buzz on the touring boards all themselves -the product was good, well designed, the price very reasonable relatively speaking, and well, it was cool. My personal take on this is that the bike gathered momentum -sort of like a product that get hundreds of 5 star reviews initially, and then it seems like anybody else reviewing them tends not to give bad reviews....

But there are downsides to the LHT; as I said, they are really good bikes -but they aren't perfect. First of all -and this isn't necessarily a negative -but let's be clear, LHT frames are whacked out as fast as possible from some factory in Taiwan, and then these bikes are distributed by Surly, a company based in a blah cookie cutter mid western city that boasts the world's largest shopping mall (oh yeah, dude!). Further, they don't use the best steel (4130 chromoly if I recall) so the frames do tend to be on the heavy side. They also aren't usually ridden by gnarly dudes, and from every LHT I've seen, the paintwork does leave something to be desired quality wise (I won't criticize colour choices as I happen to really like their olive green colour). At least in the States, I believe the LHT very much benefited from the simple fact it didn't have much competition -it wasn't so much that the LHT was so wonderful, it was more the fact it was the best you could get at the time and it had no serious competitors. Finally -and I admit this is subjective -I didn't find the LHT I rode to be as rigid as other touring bikes -it just felt slow and I had to pedal harder -point is, I don't get that feeling on my Sardar.

Anyway, the LHT also seems to be well regarded in the UK (as it is, as I've said, a good quality well designed bike) though I do wonder if there's a certain rarity value to them (e.g. LHTs are far more common in the States) as well as benefitting from all the good publicity they've received in the States. I do think the UK certainly has some equal, if not better, touring bikes at the same price point.

Wow, sorry to stray off point

I don't really understand how Surly managed to make their touring bikes 'cool' and popular when Dawes were just seen as old fashioned.

[horizon]

Wow, sorry to stray off point

It's not off the point - Surly do a 26" tourer at that is the rare thing we are discussing and what makes the Sardar unusual. My only point about the Surly is that AFAIK the top tube is too long so it isn't such a great tourer.

[CREPELLO]

Wow, sorry to stray off point

It's not off the point - Surly do a 26" tourer at that is the rare thing we are discussing and what makes the Sardar unusual. My only point about the Surly is that AFAIK the top tube is too long so it isn't such a great tourer.

That's odd, because I'd read that Sardars were also long in the TT. Horizon, any chance you (or anyone else) tell me what the effective TT is for the given frame size?

I nearly bought a Sardar when I got back into cycling in 2003. It was a toss up between that, the 531 Galaxy and the Farrahad Manufaktur T400, the steel 26" trekking bike. I ended up with a Galaxy. I think I thought I might go faster on it (can't remember what really justified the final decision now). Wish I'd bought the Sardar though.

[rich.hr6]

Here's my 2 pen'w'rth.........

........mines a nice silver Sardar, nicknamed 'wardrobe dawes', and was from Spa in 2007. As far as I know it was their last steel one, It's 52cm c-t of the seat tube, and 57 c-c along the top tube.
Needing a slightly more upright position I sent the forks to Argos in Bristol, who put a longer steerer tube in, Thorn fashion, lots of spacers. It works for me, six foot tall, 33" inside leg, using Thorn comfort bars.

RTW is a nice thought. Probably have to translate it to Round the Wirral though.

Find the Bridges theme thread to see the bike.

[henrik]

hi
do you still have your sardar? i'm looking for one.

[CREPELLO]

hi
do you still have your sardar? i'm looking for one.

Personal messaging the OP would be the best way of asking, if he/she doesn't view the forums everyday - they'll get email confirmation of your PM.

[LowPlainsDrifter]

hi
do you still have your sardar? i'm looking for one.

Bit late now I know but there was a decent one (Steel frame) on Fleabay about a week ago. It went for about £260 if I remember correct.
They pop up on there from time to time. I paid £280 for mine back about 5 years ago.

[henrik]

many thanks, i'm monitoring one atm.........
i'm new to this touring malarkey as i've been a roady. could i ask for some advice.
what size frame for a tour bike? i'm 6'2" ,inside leg seems to be a 33" if measured (to the crotch bone) ouch!, 32" trouser leg.
i've always been comfortable with 56cm/22" road bikes.........any ideas

[sweats]

In the process of having some 531 dedicated vee brake forks made up for mine by a local frame builder. Wanted to get rid of the girder like, disc ready original ones. Also specified a longer steerer to aid the back. Looking forward to getting her back on the road. Mine was another fleebay purchase with Rohloff hub for £625. One of my better buys.

[georgew]

The Sardar is certainly a fine do-it-all bike and is under-appreciated. However the LHT is not popular because it happens to be cool at the moment. In my opinion (and this is shared by many serious tourers) it excels because the Frame geometry is specifically designed for touring and adheres to the principles given by Tony Oliver as far as I can see. The relaxed angles combined with the long Head-tube makes finding a touring position easy and is an example other frame-builders would do well to copy.

[531colin]

I think the great benefit of the LHT is the extremely rigid frame (oversize CroMo) which keeps it all pointing in the same direction when loaded.
Steering geometry....from memory, always risky......
700c LHT............. 72deg head, 45mm offset
700c Tony Oliver....71 deg head, 2 1/8 to 2 1/4 inch offset
......Spa's audax is the same geometry as the trucker, Spa's tourer follows Tony Oliver, apart from translating into millithings.