Discs or canti's on a new tourer

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Brucey
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby Brucey » 21 May 2012, 12:36pm

mad thought; I wonder if it might be possible to get a little bit of extra clearance for mini-Vs + 37s + mudguards by putting a notch in the mudguard, maybe with a wee cover that goes over it somehow?

I guess it might 'leak', and might (esp. if not done well) look awful....

cheers
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bealer
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby bealer » 21 May 2012, 1:33pm

CJ wrote:Dual-pivot sidepulls meanwhile, the 57mm reach versions of, are surely the brake of choice for tarmac-only tourers running tyres up to 28mm with narrow mudguards.

This seems to leave rather a small niche for mini-Vs: just those who want four more millimetres of tyre cushion than a 28, but never any more than 32mm.


That's part of the problem for me. I tour on 32's, I don't know why, just always have. Keep meaning try 35's which I think could just fit with guards on mini v's.

But when I'm home, or doing long weekends I'm often tarmac touring, so go with 25C tyres. So the mini-v is just about in the range I want. Still miss disc brakes though, makes the lines of the bike look cleaner. Although that said, I do have a very similar bike in the form of my Croix De Fer which I'm gonna use as a winter bike, and probably my 25C quick tour bike.

Image

mattsccm
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby mattsccm » 21 May 2012, 5:17pm

Having just spent a weekend in mid Wales with a very (intentionall) overloaded disc braked bike I am ready to chuck it away. Or use it for rough stuff work as intended.
Tektro Lyra's, which are fine off road although not admittedly the super stoppers I want but on the long steep drops of the Abergwesyn to Tregaron mountain road they were worrying to me, a rather cautious descender. They are so easy to set up and adjust but just don't bite even with all the possibilities such as decent inners and outers in place.
I think the bike goes back into the wood as it was only used as I could get a lower gear than the 10 speed Campag kit on the Kaffenback with mini V's.
To be honest I think that will go and I'll look for a frame that takes dual pivots.

Brucey
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby Brucey » 21 May 2012, 5:38pm

tektro lyras are well known for being alarming....

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40052&t=12791817

personally I'd get some proper brakes instead. Call me boring if you like but (seized pad adjusters asides) there is little wrong with BB7 (or BB5) brakes. Bigger discs help too.

cheers
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mattsccm
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby mattsccm » 21 May 2012, 7:34pm

To some extent I would disagree with that link/post.
They are fine for what I believe is their intended use. Ie off road. They do not however have the bite of a hydraulic brake and whilst I knew/know that isn't going to happen I do ultimately want that sort of preformance. My experience of BB7's is much the same. The Lyras work as well. Its just that cable discs don't I feel, yet have a huge benefit over rim brakes for super hard stopping. Other advantages do exist eg in mud and I 'd rather straigten a totally crisped disc than a rim in the wilds.
Options now include the Hope V2 thingy or the pricier TRp version or wait until the SRAM stuff gets cheaper.
Or I could finish my own version which is less bulky than the Hopes but needs a caliper service.

Brucey
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby Brucey » 21 May 2012, 7:54pm

mattsccm wrote: They are fine for what I believe is their intended use. Ie off road. The Lyras work as well. Options now include the Hope V2 thingy or the pricier TRp version or wait until the SRAM stuff gets cheaper.
Or I could finish my own version which is less bulky than the Hopes but needs a caliper service.


well several posts indicate that the Tektro brakes have, er, broken. I expect this is faulty adjustment in some cases but even so.... it is hardly confidence inspiring....also see

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/fit-for-purpose-sales-of-goods-act.74248/

BTW I recently bought BB5 calipers for £15 a go which I think is cheap enough. It was a special offer though.

I suspect that very many calipers (esp 'road' pull ones) can run out of travel if the fixed pad adjuster isn't used...

cheers
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bealer
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby bealer » 22 May 2012, 12:14am

mattsccm wrote:To some extent I would disagree with that link/post.
They are fine for what I believe is their intended use. Ie off road. They do not however have the bite of a hydraulic brake and whilst I knew/know that isn't going to happen I do ultimately want that sort of preformance. My experience of BB7's is much the same. The Lyras work as well. Its just that cable discs don't I feel, yet have a huge benefit over rim brakes for super hard stopping. Other advantages do exist eg in mud and I 'd rather straigten a totally crisped disc than a rim in the wilds.


Hmmm I wouldn't say their intended use is off-road. A light set of rotors and some BB7's go perfectly on a hybrid/commuting bike. I think it's more about a different type of braking. They work just as well in the wet or with a buckled wheel, pads last ages and they're very easy to set up. They are however, heavier, sometimes a bit spongy feeling, more expensive and can overheat.

I found it really hard picking between rim brakes on my new bike. And to be honest, I still like both. I'd happily take either. In this case weight was a factor, so I went with mini-v's.

andrewjoseph
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby andrewjoseph » 23 May 2012, 9:11am

I've not found braking to be a problem fully loaded with bb7's and 160mm rotors front and rear. They can get a bit hot sometimes but nothing to affect braking performance.

However, half way through our end to end, my wife had a little fall in front of me, to avoid going over her, I rode over her back wheel. This caused a distinct buckle that would have needed truing to avoid brake rub on rim brakes. My wife said it was not an issue when riding it so we left it as it is until we got home.
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squeaker
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby squeaker » 23 May 2012, 9:34am

Brucey wrote:tektro lyras are well known for being alarming....

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40052&t=12791817

personally I'd get some proper brakes instead. Call me boring if you like but (seized pad adjusters asides) there is little wrong with BB7 (or BB5) brakes.

Hmmm, IME BB5s are pants, but BB7s just work (ignoring the pad adjuster seizing - I suspect it never rains in Avid land :roll: )
"42"

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531colin
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby 531colin » 24 May 2012, 7:12pm

CJ wrote:I like to run 37mm tyres on my tourer, ................ And the Spa frame & fork has room for them if the mudguards are snugged up to the bridge/crown. But then you definitely cannot use mini-Vs, ................. And I do like to be able to get the wheel out without having to fiddle with adjusters................
This seems to leave rather a small niche for mini-Vs: just those who want four more millimetres of tyre cushion than a 28, but never any more than 32mm.


Disagreeing with CJ is something to be done only after due consideration, but on this occasion I have the photos.......................

Image.......Image

the tyre is a Marathon HS 368, rather confusingly marked both 700.35 and 37.622. (although I think only one of them is on the tyre, but both are on the card)

There is room for a mudguard under the brake cable...
The brake pads are just about in the middle of the slots (slightly below the middle, if we want to be picky)

Edit....we will bring a similarly equipped tourer to York

MacBludgeon
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby MacBludgeon » 25 May 2012, 12:26am

mattsccm wrote:To some extent I would disagree with that link/post.
They are fine for what I believe is their intended use. Ie off road. They do not however have the bite of a hydraulic brake and whilst I knew/know that isn't going to happen I do ultimately want that sort of preformance. My experience of BB7's is much the same. The Lyras work as well. Its just that cable discs don't I feel, yet have a huge benefit over rim brakes for super hard stopping. Other advantages do exist eg in mud and I 'd rather straigten a totally crisped disc than a rim in the wilds.
Options now include the Hope V2 thingy or the pricier TRp version or wait until the SRAM stuff gets cheaper.
Or I could finish my own version which is less bulky than the Hopes but needs a caliper service.


I don't have experience of the Tektros but did follow the original tale, and a couple of others, and know one of the guys was very happy once on BB7s rather than the Tektros. But his problem had been total loss of braking rather than poor/spongy.

Over the last couple of years I've been gradually updating the family stable to disc brakes and have used the BB7s so far. So that's 3 sets of BB7 MTB version with Avid Speedial levers and 2 sets of the road version with Shimano STIs. Having not had experience of disc brakes before I'd done a lot of research and ended up following this setup in detail, even to the point of buying a dremel tool to file the cable ends:-

http://www.twowheelblogs.com/avid-bb7-d ... and-tuning

Every set has been superior, and easier to maintain, than my many sets of v-brakes and far better than my limited experience of cantis and DPs. I also have one set of hydraulic disc brakes which came on a bike I bought second hand, Tektro Auriga Comp ones. They work well, I put new pads in and used new rotors, but they will be replaced with BB7s when they give up the ghost, I have them ready and waiting as they were on an offer too good to pass up.

I've also found that once set up and bedded in I've only rarely had to dial in the pads. As per the instructions I haven't had to mess about with barrel adjusters or inline adjusters. The main thing for me is that as soon as I touch the lever the caliper should start to move, no loss or lag whatsoever. Takes a little more time for the rear than the front due to the longer cable run(I use full outers of the Goodridge compressionless stuff) but it seems to have been worth getting that spot on from the off. I would imagine that the same principle would apply to any mechanical disc brake.
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bealer
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby bealer » 26 May 2012, 12:41am

I've not had any huge issues with any type of brake (except canti's, not tried them for nearly two decades).

I do like the the range of pressure I get with discs. My limited experiences with v-brakes, I find are a bit more instant so harder to regulate. And discs work well for a long time, needing little adjustment. They do add more weight to the bike though, and mean different forks (not many curved disc forks about). And they cost more. I don't think I'd want hydraulic discs. While superior in terms of braking power and adjustment I don't think I'd want or need that level of braking on my touring bike (while I love it on my mtb). The tyres would easily become the bottleneck then (in terms of grip).

Side pull I always found very good. Sometimes they lacked a little stopping power though, but they were easy enough to set and adjust.

Generally I think it's hard to go wrong given all the solutions out there. In my case it was just hard picking one as they're all viable in their own way. So much so I've got two touring bikes now! (one with v's, one with discs)

Gearoidmuar
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby Gearoidmuar » 26 May 2012, 10:01am

I've done long tours with V-brakes, cantis and hydraulic discs, as well as hydraulic drop lever Maguras and hydraulic conventional Maguras. I've never had to do anything to Maguras other than to change the blocks and adjust the little Allen-key bolt to change the clearance. I've had a leak in the Avid-Juicy 3s but not on tour. The performance of these is phenomenal.
The problem with cantis is that you get different performance depending on the angle of the straddle wire to the cantis when the blocks press on the rims. Ideally should be 90 degrees for the best compromise. If it's a very obtuse angle due to wear or just poor setup, you will pull like hell for very little braking power.
Currently I've two touring bikes. One with Rigida Andra rims and Vs with Swissstop blocks. After initial squeaky break in period, I think that this is the best setup. The brakes are very simple and I've got 12000 miles and counting out of the original blocks.
The other has Juicys. These are more powerful, I think and I love'm but I don't fancy trying to fix a leak on tour.

Gearoidmuar
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby Gearoidmuar » 26 May 2012, 10:01am

I've done long tours with V-brakes, cantis and hydraulic discs, as well as hydraulic drop lever Maguras and hydraulic conventional Maguras. I've never had to do anything to Maguras other than to change the blocks and adjust the little Allen-key bolt to change the clearance. I've had a leak in the Avid-Juicy 3s but not on tour. The performance of these is phenomenal.
The problem with cantis is that you get different performance depending on the angle of the straddle wire to the cantis when the blocks press on the rims. Ideally should be 90 degrees for the best compromise. If it's a very obtuse angle due to wear or just poor setup, you will pull like hell for very little braking power.
Currently I've two touring bikes. One with Rigida Andra rims and Vs with Swissstop blocks. After initial squeaky break in period, I think that this is the best setup. The brakes are very simple and I've got 12000 miles and counting out of the original blocks.
The other has Juicys. These are more powerful, I think and I love'm but I don't fancy trying to fix a leak on tour.

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531colin
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Re: Discs or canti's on a new tourer

Postby 531colin » 26 May 2012, 10:18am

Gearoidmuar wrote:...........The problem with cantis is that you get different performance depending on the angle of the straddle wire to the cantis when the blocks press on the rims. Ideally should be 90 degrees for the best compromise. ..................


If only it was that easy.........Theres 2 whole threads here on canti setup http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57410, http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33329, and some on the previous page of this thread.