Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

[Brucey]

is it not part #44 here?

http://bike.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/SG/EV-SG-S700-3092_v1_m56577569830729562.pdf

Or have I misunderstood?

cheers

[MacBludgeon]

is it not part #44 here?

http://bike.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/SG/EV-SG-S700-3092_v1_m56577569830729562.pdf

Or have I misunderstood?

cheers

That's for the 11 speed hub which is different, or at least the shift cable from the 8 speed doesn't fit in the 11 speed cassette joint. Looking at the same diagram for the 8 speed hub that part isn't listed.

[Brucey]

for the 8-speed version, I quite fancy the 'Scandinavian' CJ-8S40 cassette joint described here;

http://www.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/tech_support/tech_tips.download.-Par50lparsys-0011-downloadFile.html/04%29%20Cassette%20Joint%20Units.pdf

-which is very much like the Alfine 11 version. Provided the rubber bellows doesn't get dragged into the cassette joint, that is.

I've got the other one (CJ-8S20) on my Nexus 8, and it has a slotted stainless steel sleeve piece that retains a standard plastic ferrule.



You can see there are just two little joggles in the stainless steel part which are meant to retain the plastic ferrule.

It is not a confidence-inspiring arrangement; I think I might install a barrel adjuster in there, maybe with a sealed ferrule up the middle of it instead, unless someone has a better idea.

cheers

[MacBludgeon]

well I have what came with the shifter and the cassette joint is the 820. The shift cable outer that comes with the shifter has the standard push fit plastic cap at the shift unit end but at the cassette joint end it has a fitted metal ferrule. This fits very snugly into the slotted receiver in the 820 cassette joint.

[MrM]

Update from me. To recap I am/was running an Alfine 11 on a modified Brompton. First hub was replaced due to gear skipping issues. Second hub had no gear skipping issues but leaked oil badly. I finally had enough with the leaking and not wanting to take my bike back to the dealer again sought an alternative. Found an Afline 8 for sale online at half price, so bought all the bits needed to swap the wheels out, as well as having the 8 wheel built for the retail price of an 8, which just about made it economical.

After a bit of trial an error it was an easy enough swap. 8 gear shifter shifts the other way, up for a higher gear, which is a bit odd, otherwise the 8 feels far less sensitive so tuning than the 11. Given the size of the Brompton wheels, ratios are a problem and using 16T which came fitted on the back doesn't quite give me the top end range I'd like on the 8. The SA sprockets are the same fitting but the chain fouls on the cassette, so I might pursue a modified cassette option to get down to a 14T sprocket. Planning on getting the 11 serviced as it is the more useful hub.

Will update in due course.

[Brucey]

if it is the arm on the cassette joint which fouls, I would say you have every chance of simply bending it out of the way.

cheers

[MrM]

No it's the body that catches, the plastic disc face that would be next to the sprocket on the inside. The diameter of the 13t sprocket is of course very small and this the chain simply comes too close....

[MrM]

In case anyone is looking at a smaller sprocket fit, having examined the 11 and 8 cassettes, the 8 is far more bulbous than the 11 on the side the faces the sprocket, so I think you'd easily be able to go down to a smaller one on an 11 than on an 8, unfortunately for me at the moment.

[jfarnhill]

Thanks for the replies on shifting and cable recommendations and apologies for not being on here sooner to give that thanks (blame two toddlers!). To TonyR and Brucey, I only pause for long enough to shift gear and that works every time. I've tried taking all pressure off but still pedalling and that doesn't work consistently (perhaps more down to me). I've found that with some practice it doesn't affect momentum on hills as a full shift including letting the gear drop in only takes 3-5 revolutions (and my cadence is usually around 85). As with derailleur shifting, I guess it comes down to there being certain mechanical limits to what will work then it's up to the rider as to what works best for them. Main thing is I am back to smooth shifts and a quiet gear system .

On other topics raised since I was last here, I'd very much second having index marks for every gear and putting the indexing in the hub. On the latter, I think it's a real shame that a smooth shifting hub is getting negative press essentially because of cable issues. I'm sure that's what makes the difference between vocal dissatisfied Alfine11 owners and vocal satisfied Rohloff owners!

Final note is that my Versa shifter is starting to jump several gears on higher changes again. It's not the end of the world (usually only 2-3 gears at a time and only rarely) but annoying given the cost of the things. I'm going to wait till closer to the end of the warranty and get it swapped out with the hope I'll get one that works.

[jfarnhill]

To MrM, the main reason why I went for an Alfine11 was better range so that I could have a decent top end gear. I'm looking at an Alfine8 for the bike I use for snow and ice and towing our bike trailer for the kids and I'll just accept that I coast a bit more . Good to know which sprockets will fit.

[morrgainne]

Hi Guys I have read this post with interest as I am using an Alfine 11 on a commuter bike. I weigh in at a 100 Kg and have in the past been able to twist teeth on cheep derailleur systems. The bike was bought as a complete package and is a Cube Hooper. (small frame as I am only 5'8" ) The Bike and hub has just completed 7000 km. 16 months riding as my daily commute is 42km round trip. No hill of any significances, the Garmin GPS speedo I use states a rise/fall of 90 meters in 21km. From the first day I could not get reliable shifting with any sort of load on the pedals, so quickly developed the habit of a small back pedal as I trigger the gear shift. This system works for me and gives me an instant reliable shift every time. At around 500 km started jumping gears between 6th and 7th, removed the wheel from the frame, the cable cassette unit is plastic and metal and very sloppy so cleaned and reassembled. I adjusted the cable around 7th gear and set it in the middle of the working range, only 5 clicks on the trigger end of the cable to play with. Unit now worked reliably.
Oil change at the 1000 km mark, not going to pay Shimano oil prices using 75 weight semi synthetic gearbox oil,$16 a liter not $120. Now change oil every 500 km with out any problems.
At roughly the 4000km mark the hub started playing up very badly, grinding, jumping gears, noisy, Thought I had "killed" it as I had killed the crank bearing at this point. What had happened is the lock nut and retaining nut on the disc side of the hub had come loose and allowed the axle to move about 10mm sideways. Disassembled the chain side, including the rubber/plastic cover over the roller bearing and readjusted the loose nut. I set the tension so that you could see the oil move, but feel not movement in the bearing. reassembled and payed special attention to cleaning the gear selecting unit. This unit felt rough when moved by hand but seemed to work fine. Hub was a bit crunchy from 2nd to 3rd and 2nd to 1st, so did not work 2nd gear hard, used it to move me to 3rd which was working fine. The down side is the small oil seal that is on the sprocket side of the axle has been damaged and now leaks oil, but after 500km 2nd gear was working well is is still working well and I am not being gentle on it.
Was not sure how long the hub would last after the readjustment, I simply added 10 ml of oil ever 300 km, the chain is now well lubricated and I currently disassemble and clean the sprocket area every third oil top up.
At the 5500km started shifting problems going up the gears only, going down worked fine. Checking the shifter cable and it felt slightly tight. The trigger it self was miss firing occasionally, rough maths said I had operated the unit about 50,000 times I purchased a new trigger, with cable and a complete set of shifting parts for the outside of the hub. In comparison, the old cable was stiffer than the new unit and as soon as I fitted the all the new parts the unit started shifting gear faultlessly. I will state that there MUST be next to no drag in the cable for the gear shift mechanism to work reliably. Over time the plastic parts of the shifting system wear, be prepared to adjust the cable at the first hint of a problem.
Sorry about the long post but I wanted to let people know that whilst these units are finicky and have minor problems they are capable of reasonable distances reliably. I have to do less work/maintenance on this hub than I have on any derailleur system I have used. I am not gentle on the hub as I am able to average 27kph moving speed (the Garmin pauses when I am moving at less than 2kph) to Work ("downhill") and 25kph average moving speed going home("uphill") With out a tail or head wind. I have continued with the top up oil routine as the unit is working faultlessly and I do not want to disturb anything by replacing the seal.

Keep safe Morrgainne Melbourne Australia

[Brucey]

what an odyssey!

Very useful post though; it pretty much demonstrates that minor issues with the cable and the shift mechanism are almost inevitable, and will cause shifting issues, but also that these are far from intractable problems.

Having the locknuts come loose is just bad luck though; I guess they may not have been tightened enough to start with.

cheers

[ton6a]

I bought a Giant Futuro CS) bike with Alfine 11 on 30-09-2012 for commuting purposes. I now have the third Alfine 11 hub gear. I use it as indicated by Shimano. I hold back when I shift. Yet the first two went broken after 400 km. Skipping gears, totally no gear! Sometimes the latest hub shifts wrong, but perhaps that is due to the shifter. I'll see how long this one will work.

[Brucey]

That must be very frustating.

However, unless you have had two bad hubs from a bad batch, it is statistically extremely unlikely that two such rapid hub failures are unrelated. There may be an underlying problem, with setup, installation, adjustment, the shifter, the cabling, or even your shifting technique.

In both cases the hub failed before it was even run in; until they are run in, many hub gears (even the most expensive) do not shift perfectly smoothly or consistently. Many Alfine 11 owners have reported that their hubs have improved over time, and are immediately significantly better after their first oil change; presumably there is running-in wear debris sloshing around in the first lot of oil.

I'd suggest weekly (or more frequent) checks on the cable adjustment, and for free movement of the cable etc.

I've just added the following comments to another Alfine thread;

BTW I don't know if this is usually the case in every gear on an Alfine 11, but in many shimano hub gears, should you backpedal, the gear disengages, since the pawls that engage the gear are the same as those that allow backpedalling (but not freewheeling) in any one gear. When you resume pedalling after backpedalling, the effect is identical to a gearshift in that the gear engagement pawls must re-engage.

Forwards pedalling without load (FPWL) during/after shifting allows the engagement pawls to settle without risk of partial engagement, and therefore slippage. Actually backpedalling during shifting may be counterproductive in many cases, unless it is followed by some forward pedalling without load (FPWL).

I am of a view that shifting under any significant load is as bad as shifting gears in a car without using the clutch.

It risks partial pawl engagement, and thus pawl damage. In most (maybe all) gears, the load is taken on two pawls that engage on the axle itself and lock one of the sun pinions to the axle. The pawls have rounded ends, so that they will ride up ramps and not engage at other times. This means that in order to engage properly, they must be allowed to settle fully. I estimate that 1 in 20 shifts under load may allow the pawls to partially engage at best. Slippage is then likely. The pawls see estimated nose loads of up to 750kg to 1000kg in normal use. If just one engages, this load is instantly doubled and a side load appears on the sun pinion that is not allowed for in the design; the side load will inhibit further movement of the shift sleeve (which may deform if overloaded) and precipitate a chain of events that will wreck the gear.

If the gear slips under heavy load, e.g. following a bad shift, the relevant sun pinion may slip half a turn, and the pawls will be hammered against their engagement. The instantaneous load on the pawls may be in the region of 10-20 tonnes, and the pawls may shatter if they are hard, or deform if they are not. In either case the gear is unlikely to work correctly afterwards.

You may wonder how it is that a product is sold that can suffer such tremendous damage in 'Just Riding Along' (JRA) use. Well, there is JRA and JRA. Car gearboxes are very similar; ham-fisted use can break any gear gearbox very quickly. Here, Shimano don't help themselves, because (as well as engineering a shifting system that is vulnerable to cable problems) they suggest that shifting under load might be OK, because it isn't specifically prohibited.

Well, having seen the guts of similar hubs, (four speeds and eight speeds are similar inside, take a look at those if you get a chance) I'm telling you that shifting these hubs under significant load is as bad as not using the clutch with a car gearbox. You might get way with it some of the time, but it is going to break stuff.

cheers

[jfarnhill]

morrgainne, thanks for the long post; it's really useful to have them if you're using these hubs as it provides neat tips and tricks for keeping everything running smoothly. Thanks also to brucey, as ever, for his wisdom. Short update on my hub. I'd got it changing smoothly without having to change the cable so held off on changing it. Having taken the wheel out to clean the cassette joint, though, I noticed that there is no waterproof ferrule fitted as standard by Madison so if you do get an Alfine11 from Madison it's worth checking and fitting one. I think that also explains my cable woes . The other thing I've noticed since refitting the wheel is that I've run out of adjustment on the barrel adjuster on the Versa shifter. I guess logically this was always going to happen as the cable stretched. So, given all that and I've got a sportive at the end of the month I'm going for a fresh housing and inner cable and I'll get my LBS to fit it as they no doubt have better tools than me and more time to get it right without interference from two toddlers. It'll also go in for a service for good measure; I think morrgaine's absolutely right that these hubs benefit from having very regular services, particularly given their propensity to lose oil....