Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

[Meshuga]

BTW - after my last rounds of posting and pics, many pages ago, I put another 600miles on my alfine 11. It started making funny noises and then second gear went. I was fed up of the finnickyness and fine tuning of the 11 speed. Shimano replaced the hub, which I sold on. I went back to an eight. Bombproof, in my opinion.

[rfryer]

@rfryer: looks like the genesis cable end bolt is from an alfine 8. the 8 shifts to a higher gear as the cable tightens, and the cable wraps clockwise around the cassette joint. The 11 shifts to a lower gear as the cable tightens and wraps anticlockwise around the cassette joint. Hence the bolts are drilled to produce a mirror image. Very curious that they should provide you with the wrong one.

In both systems the cable end bolt should be affixed to the cassette joint with the nut facing outwards. with this genesis one are they asking you to fix the nut facing inwards perhaps? I didn't think this was possible but it would be a suitable bodge.

Genesis did supply the Nexus part on the Alfine 11 with the bolt facing outwards. It fits, but removal without pliers is tricky as you can't use the standing part of the cable to rotate it.

[jfarnhill]

@meshuga re the Alfine11 hub. Update on mine is that I got the cable inner and outer replaced with Shimano on both and a stainless inner cable. The outer had got some evidence of corrosion at the end so evidently some water had got in somewhere. I got the LBS to take the bellows off and couldn't find any waterproof ferrules and waterproof end caps (which I did find) don't work so I'm sticking with the rubber bumper, which does seem to provide a good seal. The oil got changed and it came out black BUT after three quarters of an hour of getting it out (including using a hair dryer to heat the hub!) my LBS assures me they were only 1-2ml short. I've also gone for a 21 sprocket at the back to replace the 23 so with a 40 chainring that brings it onto the magic 1.9 ratio. Unfortunately, despite all that and trying various permutations of where the yellow marks are plus following brucey's recommendations on changing gear I'm still getting gear chatter. Genesis are insisting on having the bike back to verify my shifter issues so when it goes in for that, I'll get them to have a look at what's causing the gear chatter too. It sounds exactly like a badly adjusted derailleur in most gears at the moment (losing the will to live and have a cold so I haven't yet tested exactly which ones). Must admit I am tempted to join meshuga and just go for an Alfine8. The one I tested when I was originally looking at the Alfine11 was superb and I'm getting pretty fed up of how much messing about and expense the Alfine11 takes, even though the range of gears is better.

[Brucey]

that all sounds very frustrating. I do wonder if the noises mean that the hub is already, or is now being, damaged.

cheers

[jfarnhill]

Exactly my concerns! I'm just at a loss to explain why it seems to be going down the same road as the last one. There is evidently something going wrong somewhere.

[jfarnhill]

Quick update to say that after some testing, I can change gear without chatter as long as I am *very* careful on the change (stop pedalling, pedal forward with no load for 2-3 rotations) and don't apply too much load when it's in gear. Far from ideal. If I am still careful on the changes but apply load I get gear chatter in all gears except the bottom two and the top three. So, if anyone has any thoughts then please let me know! Somewhat frustrating to do a ride like tonight where I can pass someone else but then see them coming thundering past whilst I'm busy changing gear and losing momentum! According to my LBS, the other people who've got Genesis Fortitudes(http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/mou ... -adventure) have not had a problem so far. Having said that the Fortitude is a hard tail mountain bike but the ratio is 32 x 18 against my 40 x 21.

[MacBludgeon]

32x18 and 40x21 are pretty close it's the input ratio that matters so 1.78 versus 1.9

[rfryer]

There's been a lot of talk about deviation from Shimano's suggested input ratio of 1.9 having the potential to cause problems, presumably because running a lower ratio allows the rider to put more torque through the hub. But then manufacturers are freely building bikes with lower ratios than that, or putting them into tandems where the potential for high torque is magnified. I suspect it's all a bit of a red herring.

I do wonder, though, if running the hub with the shifter slightly out of adjustment can cause gradual damage before actually exhibiting any problems (by which time it's too late). My experience is that the yellow marks were perfectly aligned from new, but that I've had to tweak the cable adjustment quite a few times to keep it that way, despite having had no feedback (other than the yellow marks) to indicate that it was going out of adjustment. I now try to check that the marks are aligned every time I ride.

How diligent are other users about checking cable adjustment, especially those that have had problems?

[Brucey]

I share your concerns, and yes, when you look inside these hubs you can see how bad adjustment can absolutely cause noises and damage.

cheers

[jfarnhill]

@MacBludgeon @rfryer Appreciated that it's a small difference but thought it was worth a try .
@rfryer Got the yellow marks aligned at the moment and I've been very diligent about cable adjustment and checking after the experiences I've had. Still not helping but equally I'd concur with brucey that the hub's probably damaged in the gears that chatter anyway (but that makes little sense to me given that they all rely on the same cable).

[jfarnhill]

Managed to complete a 63 mile sportive on the hub yesterday and whilst it's still clattering away, it was mostly shifting OK but I've got to the point now where I'm never too sure whether I can rely on it or not, which is a shame.

[rfryer]

@jfarnhill - I think I'd be looking to get the hub replaced if it was as noisy as your seems to be. It's no good if you can't rely on it.

I did a 70-mile sportive on mine a couple of weeks ago, the flooded-out Tour O the Borders, and it was pretty uneventful. In the gale-force winds and hub-deep floods, it was nice having a solid, dependable bike. No regrets leaving the deep-rimmed carbon road bike at home that day!

But this Saturday, I had my first slip-up from the hub. Sitting comfortably (and quietly) in gear, and had been for some time, when the gears did a quick slip, then instantly recovered. But nothing else bad happened in the next 20-odd miles, so I'm hoping that it was just a one-off rather than the start of my Alfine 11 nightmare!

One other thing on Saturday - I was barreling down Glen Shiel (on my Day One Alfine 11) pedaling into a bit of a head-wind, swooping round the bends, and was surprised to run out of gears. I looked at the speedo, and was doing 40. I hadn't had a clue I was going that fast; the bike is incredibly solid and stable. I'd have been quite nervous doing that on my road bike!

[michael42]

Managed to complete a 63 mile sportive on the hub yesterday and whilst it's still clattering away, it was mostly shifting OK but I've got to the point now where I'm never too sure whether I can rely on it or not, which is a shame.

I wouldn't spend nearly £2k on a bike and accept any premise that you cannot change gear when cycling either fast or hard. Ok, mechanical sympathy is one thing - (unless we can learn the Bradley Wiggins art of parking your bike if you throw it in temper) - but I've got a nexus 8 - the whole bike cost £400 and I just change gear when I need to change gear. Whether I'm moving or not, going fast or slow, stood up pedalling or not.

If someone said, "when you're stood up on a 12% gradient and changed down that's not a good idea". Perhaps they have a point, although the hub doesn't seem to complain. But, the rest of my changes I wouldn't accept if someone said you have to treat it with kid gloves. You have to be like Kimi R on the radio "You want me to push or look after the tyres?" - the point is, fair enough some ham-fisted buffoon in an F1 car is going to break something, but your bike should be mechanically sound enough for you to change gear on it. You should be able to cycle like a pro, you shouldn't have to cycle like you're delivering bread.

That said, I have had two issues with the cable. One is that occasionally the cable comes out of the housing at the shifter end. Easy to fix. The other was once it stopped shifting properly on a really cold day - I assume it must have been the cold day because it snowed for 3 or 4 days afterwards (so I sat moping indoors, unable to do much about the bike or cycling) but had magically repaired itself the next time I went to look at the bike with a view to fixing it or taking it to someone. It has been fine since. Although I notice the end of the cable, the excess beyond where it attaches to the hub, has snapped off.

The gear ratios on the nexus 8 are a bit of a pain. 1st to 2nd has a big jump, like the 11, that's not so bad, especially since I think the gearing is a bit high. Were 1st any higher I'd be struggling up some hills more than I am now. But between 5th and 6th it has the same jump - and that's a bit of a pain because it's often the case that I'm spinning 5th at 90-100 cadence and I can't really push 6th if I change up. It feels like it needs a gear between them. A gear that, effectively, the 11 has because of the 13% or so jumps between each gear.

With this supposed 1.9 input ratio, the gearing on the Alfine 11 is a bit farcical imo. At least, anyone using the gearing I've seen on some hybrids equipped with the alfine 11 must have a big red S on their T-Shirt. If I had the 11 I'd want 1st gear under 30 gear inches. i.e at least 1 or 2 gears under what I have on the 8. On the nexus 8, doing that would make the top end a bit low. Although some mountain bikers have ignored this limit.

I had eyed the Day one with interest although it seems a lot of money. But I think now, if I I'm ever going to spend £1.7k on a bike, it will be a bike with the rohloff hub. I know that would mean the hub would be a big chunk of the total cost, but so far as I can see with a £400 IGH bike compared with, say £1000 one - you get a cheaper hub (that's not that bad) and crap v-brakes that neither line up, last or stop the bike (but which cyclists don't seem to mind) The rest of the difference as you spend more is really neither here nor there. Recycled coke cans or old pencils, take your pick. So long as my next bike has disc brakes of some description I'd be happy that most of the rest of the money went on the hub.

But, changing oil every 200 miles? Changing oil after 1000km? £120 a litre oil? Someone telling you to get off and push because changing gear might damage the hub? I'd be pissed, so upset if I'd put £1.7k in someone's hand and they came out with stuff like that. If the LBS started waving his hands and talking about car gears, I'd ask him to eat the bike and the car and see if he can taste the difference. My last car did 150000 miles on the gearbox. I didn't change the oil in it nor drive slowly to avoid gearbox noise (I'm not saying cars don't go wrong, but it's farcical to mention them in the same breath as bikes. Maybe if it was still 1974 and British Leyland were still at it. Once upon a time cars didn't start on cold mornings and rusted to pieces, but the world of cars moved on)

I'm pretty sure you'll find the Alfine 8 is great - assuming 8 gears are enough. On my hybrid the highest speed I get to is 51km or so, and then I'm mostly not pedalling anyway. If it's better in any way than the nexus then it must be good (it's worth noting too that there are more revisions of the nexus and alfine hubs - which I'm sure fixes some of the issues these old hubs have e.g I don't know how long water supposedly takes to ingress or cause the damage, but I got my bike last June, the wettest on record or something, and went out nearly every day in the rain, without issues so far) Perhaps eventually this will be true of the 11 - although they seem to have just jumped to adding gimmicks like electronic shifting this year (and no doubt if they are getting £120 a litre for oil, it's no wonder they've made the Di2 Alfine 8 oil filled too - did Shimano hire the guy that developed inkjet ink or something?)

The rohloff hub sounds a better bet for having lots of gears c/w lower gearing, albeit an expensive option.

[rfryer]

@michael42 - I won't argue with your thoughts about preferring a Rohloff equipped bike if spending 1.7K. If I'd had the option, I'd have been tempted too, although I'm not aware of any Versa-style shifters that work with Rohloff, and I do prefer drops. However, I got my Day One as an insurance settlement, and Rohloff equipped bikes weren't on the menu. I do take issue with Genesis, in particular, who create newer and more expensive bikes based mainly on tubing type, but make no marketing effort to explain the improvements (if any) other than "Oooh, it's got an 853 sticker!". Proper winds me up!

Having said that, I don't agree that "You should be able to cycle like a pro" on any IGH hub equipped bike. Bike pros don't ride IGH transmissions, and there's probably a reason for that. I've no problem with adopting different riding styles on different bikes, to ride them sympathetically. Taking your comparison with car gearboxes, I'd happily change gears under load and high revs in a paddle-shifting Ferrari, in a way that I'd not dream of in a small hatchback. That's because I know the underlying technologies differ and will therefore accept different treatment - and I see a direct parallel with derailleurs and IGHs.

The 200-mile oil change interval was my daft idea (and the oil's only £90 a litre in bulk)! I just feel that there's more likelihood of generating swarf from the gears during the break-in period, so I decided to make oil changes more regular earlier on in order to minimize the risk of particles in the oil causing problems. I'll increase the intervals over time, and as I discover that the oil is generally free from larger particles. Anyway, the oil change process isn't much of a hardship - I'm always curious as to what I'll find in there!

Finally, I've not seen much evidence of the bike industry recommending the cossetting of Alfine 11 hubs. It's mainly been word of mouth on internet forums, and I've used this to establish a regime which I hope will give my hub a long and crunch-free life. Shimano seems to be happily honoring warranties on the these hubs, and I'm sure would be very cautious about admitting that they were inadequate for "normal" use.

PS - I'm thinking of buying a litre of SG-S700 oil for the Alfine 11; would any forum-ers be interested in buying smaller quantities off me at cost?

[bobc]

<<But this Saturday, I had my first slip-up from the hub. Sitting comfortably (and quietly) in gear, and had been for some time, when the gears did a quick slip, then instantly recovered. But nothing else bad happened in the next 20-odd miles, so I'm hoping that it was just a one-off rather than the start of my Alfine 11 nightmare!>>

And that's the limit of issues I've had with mine, like a single pawl slip somewhere in its innards. It has happened just the once this year (over say 250miles?) & came out of the blue as a bit of a surprise....
I regard mine as a completely successful system & love the fact that the entire bike has been treated with benign neglect since it was new & just delivers the goods when asked. I change gear "sympathetically", like I would on any gear system, certainly dont pedal gently after stopping for 2 revs of the wheel, or back pedal or anything, I just back off the pressure while flicking the versa shifter levers.
It's annual oil change is due, I think I'll try automotive gear oil of some description this time & see how that goes (I'll try to get low viscosity if I can...). That's a great offer rfryer but I should do it sooner rather than later & am interested to see if I get any issues arising!