Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

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Macadam
Posts: 7
Joined: 3 Sep 2018, 12:38pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Macadam »

Thanks a lot. Do you have photos of the other parts ?
Very interesting these details and comparaison with the old version.
Can you give us information about a German distributor for these new parts ?
But maybe it will cost less money to buy a new hub instead of improve the old version.

Macadam
Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

After putting everything back together, I'm having a small issue: In gear 11, the gear cable is looser that it was before, and as a result I can't get to gear 1.

I guess we can rule out the mini-surgery I did on the Alfine and the culprit is more likely to be the cassette joint somehow, but I can't figure out what could be the cause.

The two yellow marks line up perfectly in gear 6.

I used this video to learn how to put the two parts together:
[youtube]qpHQdSvLQj8[/youtube]

Any idea?

Thank you.
Brucey
Posts: 44455
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

I have seen this exact thing and IIRC the cause (on at least one occasion) has been that the 'window' in the CJ has been dislodged and is preventing the thing from going full stroke. However it hasn't been the only cause, and I'm struggling to recall what the others have been.....


Clutching at straws here, but maybe there was some kind of assembly fault in the axle that meant the CJ didn't fit properly any more; maybe the 'cog' shaped washer (#21, which the moving part of the CJ locates onto) was fitted upside down?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

Thanks for the hints.

When turning the "Drive Plate Seal" (21) upside down, the cable was even looser. But then, it makes sense since that's the part the cassette joint fits into:
Image
http://www.bikeman.com/HU8392.html

Next, I noticed that, rather than putting the "Lock Washer" (22) and then trying to insert the "Lock Washer Seal" (23) into it with a screwdriver (it didn't fit well)… it's a lot easier to fit the seal into the washer before laying the combo on top of the "Drive Plate Seal" (21) and then putting the "Joint Nut Stop Washer" (24) on top of it to keep the seal from sticking out, and finally, tightening the "Serated Lock Nut (4.4 mm)" (25) by hand (I'll get a 17mm cone spanner tomorrow.)

The cable is now as tight as it was before that little adventure, and I can access gears 11-1 :)

Lessons learned: Make sure you remember…
1. Which side the "Drive Plate Seal" (21) was when you took it out
2. It's 23 into 22 followed by 24 and 25.

I'll report back after taking the bike for a spin.

Image
Brucey
Posts: 44455
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

it is quite easy to get everything out of line on the parts that are secured by the RHS locknut; some folk report that fitting the seal is almost impossible (but even so I have usually managed it OK). IIRC there are some tiny features on a die cast part that are easily damaged/broken.

I would advise against riding the bike too far if the locknuts are not properly tight; there are parts on the RHS of the hub which can start moving around and may be damaged.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

It ran fine for a few miles, and then… it seized up, the cassette joint would spin freely around the axle so the shifter no longer worked, and I was stuck in gear 11 :-/

I guess the easiest solution is to get a new Alfine 11, along with a new Gates sprocket.

Could you confirm I need to buy the following tools as wel?
  • 46 Y13098024 TL-S700 Inner Cable Fixing Bolt Setting Tool
  • 47 Y13098021 TL-S701 Right Hand Cone Removal Tool
  • 48 Y13098022 TL-S702 Right Hand Cone Installation Tool
  • 49 Y70819000 TL-S704 Seal Set Tool
  • 50 Y32010000 TL-AF10 Right Hand Dust Cap A Installation Tool

Is there a tutorial/video somewhere that explains how to perform that operation?

Thank you.
Brucey
Posts: 44455
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

you don't strictly need any of those tools to change the internal for another. The cable setting tool is handy but not essential. The tool to remove the dustcap from the hubshell likewise. If I had to buy just one tool it would be the dustcap tool.

The other tools may be very useful but I have managed to strip these hubs and repair them without.

I'd imagine that the problem you have had has been caused by damage to the die cast piece as I mentioned above

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

With no significant technical experience, it might be hard to do without the tools Shimano mentions.

What part is the die cast piece ?
Brucey
Posts: 44455
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

the die cast piece is #22; it is shiny, locates the static part of the CJ, and is (as I mentioned earlier) easily damaged if it is not fitted correctly and/or the locknut isn't fully tightened. You might just need a new one of those.

The reason you don't need all those tools to change an internal is because the internal stays in one piece. All you need to do is to fit the large dustcap, sprocket and CJ on the right, and adjust the cone on the left. The only special tool you need to do this is the dustcap wrench and you can make do without that.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

Thanks. I'll get a cone spanner tomorrow to tighten the "Serated Lock Nut" and make sure the die cast/"Lock Washer" is secure.

Otherwise, I might get a new SG-S7000-11 since the original, SG-700 is no longer available

Still, with no tutorial available on the Net, it looks a bit daunting, especially since Dan Burkhart recommends using Shimano's TL-S701 to remove the drive side cone (and I assume, TL-S702 Right Hand Cone Installation Tool to install the replacement Alfine)

[youtube]Nsn8MP1X_qA[/youtube]
Brucey
Posts: 44455
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

have a read of the pdf linked to upthread if you are thinking of stripping the internal completely.

On the other hand replacing the internal is a simple five minute job. As I keep saying the only tricky bit is getting the dustcap off the hubshell. Procedure is (I think) detailed in one of the shimano service manuals.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
meandros
Posts: 59
Joined: 1 Jan 2018, 7:34pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by meandros »

Winfried, once making sure the parts 21-25 are correctly assembled (even greased a bit) and tightened, make sure you have installed the CJ correcty, part no.41, the driver cap is essential for the CJ to work correctly; without it, the CJ is forced onto the drive plate seal leading to issues like you experienced. It goes over the snap ring, so make sure that is flush against the sprocket.

You don't need a new hub, just make sure to get everything right with this one.
Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

Thanks for the tip.

I do have part no.41 ("Driver Cap") tighly set around/on top of the snap ring.

I'll drop at the local bike co-op tomorrow where I think they have a 17mm cone spanner and tighten the "Serated Lock Nut" properly, and use the opportunity to make sure the driver cap is properly fit, and on the right side (how can I tell?).

At this point, here's what it sounds like when going through gear 11 → 1, and back. Clearly, there's something odd happening from gear 6 on down, with the yellow marks propperly lined up in gear 6:

https://instaud.io/3bc3
Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

To investigate the slight clicking noise I could hear in gears 6-1 last night, I took it apart again, and… it's now in worse shape and I can't figure out what I did that could explain it:

1. If I set the Lock Washer (22) thusly, I can fit the cassette joint, but it spins freely, ie. there's no retension to pull it back to gear 11 :

Image

2. If I set the Lock Washer thusly, I can't fit the cassette joint:

Image

FWIW, here's a couple of pictures of the snap ring with the driver cap (41) removed, and with it in place:
Image
Image
meandros
Posts: 59
Joined: 1 Jan 2018, 7:34pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by meandros »

Why don't you send it to Brucey for a full rebuild?

Provided the drive plate seal (no.21) is installed with the dot outwards and the lock washer and seal (nos.22-23) are flush against it with the stop washer (no.24) installed with the three dots inwards and in their right locations (there is only one correct placing for them, sitting flush against the lock washer), there should be no issues fitting the CJ if the lock nut pushes everything together tightly.
Though, looking at the pics, could be the resolution/angle etc but that lock washer looks like it has seen better days; it isn't warped, is it?

Anywho, in your place, I would send that puppy out for a full rebuild, it may need some deep cleaning and proper lube-job. As Brucey wrote, ATF on it's own is not a very good or proper lubricant, for that matter.
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