Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

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ukdodger
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by ukdodger »

ukdodger wrote:
squeaker wrote:
ukdodger wrote:I know Brucey will disagree but I think there are just too many gears for a hub that size and adjustments are too critical.
IMHO it's the reliance on cable tension that's the issue - I'm sure a Rohloff type 11-spd hub would shift faultlessly :wink:


Yes it would.
niggle
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Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by niggle »

As Brucey says the likely explanation is that something in the cable has shifted and not settled back the way it was before. I have had this with a Nexus 8 where the outer cable ferule at the shifter end slipped out of the adjuster whilst the wheel was out. When the wheel was reinstalled the cable outer managed to get hung up on the outer lip of the adjuster, thus pulling an extra few mm of inner cable and losing 1st gear (Nexus 8 shifts the opposite way to Alfine 11), although it appeared that 8th was the missing one as the gear indicator was showing one gear lower than actual.
Pitchpole
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Joined: 13 Sep 2011, 9:32pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Pitchpole »

Just a bit of a non technical update. I have had an Alfine 11 for three years on a Genesis Day One with Versa shifters. I bought it to reduce the amount of maintenance and replacement needed on a derailleur bike used for all year round commuting on hilly, wet country roads.

It was an ex-demo bike and the shifters needed replacing after a few weeks. Since then I have absolutely no problem. The bike is quite heavy and adds a couple of minutes to my 20km commute but that time is more than regained by the lack of fettling at the weekends. I change the oil as recommended and it has given faultless service rarely needing even any cable adjustment.

I have a 20% hill 2km from the house on the way to work and don't have to get out of the saddle in gear 1. I just begin to spin a bit on the downhills in gear 11 if I am much over 65km/hr. My mate has sent his Rohloff back twice for repair since I have had this.

Perhaps I have been lucky but it has been an excellent bit of kit as far as I am concerned.
shutuplegz
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Joined: 2 Jun 2017, 8:58pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by shutuplegz »

I've just discovered this thread - it probably would have been useful to me over the last few years! I'm not replying to any post in particular here but I just thought I'd share my 2p-worth (and then some!) and experiences of Alfine 11 speed hubs (and 8 speed FWIW).

I got my first Alfine hub geared bike about 10 years ago now and have had three others since. My history, loosely, is as follows:
1. Alfine 8, Alfine mech flat bar shifter, chain drive, year round commuter, owned for 9 years, sold 1 year ago, over 20,000 miles ridden.
2. Alfine 11, Alfine mech flat bar shifter, belt drive, tourer (20% wet use), owned for 4 years so far, only approx 500 miles so far.
3. Alfine 11, Versa mech drop-bar brifter, belt drive, year round commuter, owned for 2 years so far, approx 5000 miles so far.
4. Alfine 8, Alfine Di2 drop-bar brifter, chain drive, dry weather/fun commuter, owned for 1 year so far, only approx 200 miles so far.

Things I have learnt, noticed or done:
a. Alfine hub gears are sensitive to cable issues, 11 speed much more so than 8 speed so:
i. Always use good quality outer and matching inner cables (I have always used Shimano or Jagwire inner and outer matching sets)
ii. Always ensure that the outer cables are cleanly and squarely cut (even the manufacturers don't always do this) and after cutting trim away the outer plastic sleeve from the first 1mm or so of 'metal' and clear out any debris from the inner sheath even if this means flaring this out slightly.
iii. Try to minimise the chances of grit, dirt, water or anything else getting inside the cable. If you have the choice over cable routing, go for the top tube and down the seat stay rather than under the BB and along the chain-stay.
iv. Keep the cassette joint clean but don't grease or oil it (just attracts dirt) which means on a chain-drive bike keeping the chain well oiled but not so well oiled that the cassette joint gets gummed up!
v. Always allow for cable stretch. Fit a barrel adjuster and screw it fully in when the cable is new so you can take up the slack as the cable gradually stretches.
vi. Keeping the two yellow dots on the cassette joint lined up is key. The 8 speed hub would tolerate a bit of misalignment before 'transmission noise' or jumping/slipping gears occurred. Normally you hear some sort of additional running noise before it actually slips or jumps, as a sort of 'early warning'. The 11 speed hub tolerates none and will just jump or slip without warning, if I don't keep an eye on the yellow markers. In fact on the 11 speed hub it is almost as if the two blobs of yellow paint have too great a tolerance and the actual 'sweet spot' to avoid jumping/slipping gears would be better defined by two very fine pin-point lines! Sometimes on the 11 speed, that sweet-spot isn't where the two yellow blobs align perfectly either! I even find that temperature changes over the space of a week (say during Spring or Autumn) can lead to the 11 speed going slightly out of adjustment!
vii. Over the years, virtually all problems, noises, issues etc I've had with these hubs have been traced back to a cable/shifting problem.
viii. On my newest one, with Di2 (the need for which I was very sceptical of initially for hub gears compared to derailleur gears where I could see obvious advantages) all of these potential cable/shifting problems go away! Apart from general ease of use and tune-ability of the Alfine Di2 system, I now see that the reliability and removal of all cable/shifting issues is its key 'USP'.

b. On my first Alfine 8 speed hub, during the first winter with sub-zero temperatures, I noticed that when it was really cold the gear shifting would become a little 'sticky' and slow and the hub felt a little draggy and didn't make the usual noises in some gears. So after that winter I did the following:
i. Given some token confidence mainly by the 'hubstripping' website, but also trial and error, I stripped down my Alfine 8 hub to approximately 80% disassembled (inside, after approximately 1500 miles at that point, it looked quite clean, with some 'greying' of the white grease around the drive-side (DS) outer bearing race only).
ii. I then cleaned all components as best I could, to remove as much of the original grease as possible.
iii. I had decided to rebuild grease free and take the risk of running in an oil bath instead, as providing I didn't lay the bike flat on the NDS, the seals on the DS looked adequate to me. I also decided NOT to use the expensive Shimano oil that at that time they provided for soaking the hub in prior to re-assembly (i.e. before the 11 speed, oil-bath hub existed). I looked at some automotive gear oil I had in hand and decided that was a bit gloopy, particularly thinking how much stiffer gear changes can be on cold mornings before the gearbox has warmed up! So in the end I decided to take a risk and use 10w40 engine oil. In fact I decided specifically on Castrol GTX Magnatec as it was supposed to 'cling' to all moving parts and not all flow back into the sump once the engine has stopped and cooled. It had served my car very well for many years anyway. I also decided that the plastics/rubber seals used inside my Alfine hub were probably not very dissimilar to those used throughout my engine/oil system, so I decided the risk was acceptable. I soaked and washed through the components in the new oil to again try and remove as much of the grease as possible.
iv. With the wheel resting against a wall at approx 15-30 degrees to the vertical, with the innards of the hub removed and the NDS bearings facing the wall and packed with grease (that was compatible with the oil), I filled the hub outer casing with the Magnatec oil until the level was either just about to over-top the NDS bearings or the DS outer lip of the housing. I would then adjust the angle of the wheel so I could pour in as much oil as possible without it spilling over either of these edges.
v. Next was the potentially messy bit, putting the innards back in without oil spilling out everywhere! This is much easier on the newer 11 speed hubs with their NDS seals but it is possible to slowly slide the hub mechanism back in without pushing all the oil either out past the NDS bearing or back out of the DS hole! The first time I did this also greased the DS outer bearing race. Later on I would find that the grease on the DS and NDS bearings would always just get washed away by the oil and the bearings would remain nicely lubricated so I didn't bother with the grease ever again after this. Providing the hub innards are inserted gradually, and then the black plastic DS sealing cap is screwed on fairly quickly, usually no oil will leak out. I always wet-assemble any seals anyway, to ensure there is no bunching or pinching of the seals during tightening/assembly.
vi. On this original hub, changing to an oil bath removed any cold weather shifting issues and lead to another 18,500 miles of reliable running, year round, in all weathers (including floods up to the axles one year!) and although only road-riding it is a mixture of rural and urban roads so often very muddy, but also salted sections in the winter. I opened up this hub about a year after first removing the grease and it was as clean as a whistle in there. Over the remaining time I had it (i.e. over 20,000 miles total) I probably changed the oil only a further two, maybe three times, but this was always just out of curiosity to see if anything was wearing rather than due to any problems with the hub.
vii. On my current main commuting bike, with the Alfine 11 mech hub and belt drive, after a few months of running in I also opened this one up, but didn't disassemble the innards this time. I just cleaned out the hub housing, then left the drive/axle assembly sat on its end for a while to let the Shimano OEM oil run away as much as possible. I then 'washed' it in the new oil (Castrol GTX Magnatec again!) a few times before filling the housing up again using the same method as above. I have done another 4000ish miles on that hub since that time, again in all weathers all year round and it has not missed a beat!
viii. I have had almost no problems with oil leaks except: Once on my original 8 speed hub, when I first filled it with oil I overfilled it slightly and with the bike leaning more then usual against a gate, a small amount of oil got past the NDS bearings and onto the disc. Never had a problem again after this. Once on my higher mileage 11 speed I didn't tighten the DS sealed cap quite tightly enough and a very small leak appeared. Also my first 11 speed on the tourer (low mileage so far) started to leak the Shimano oil from this same cap/seal after a long period of inactivity. Tightening this cap and just using the bike now and again has stopped this.

c. Other things I have learnt/noted:
i. Along with keeping cables in good condition, inadequate chain or belt tension can also lead to strange noises, or pedalling related problems for which it is all too easy to blame the hub, or even sound like it is coming from the hub. It had always been my concern that on my original bike, with the recommended chain tension (1/2" max up/down movement at the chain midpoint) which always seemed very tight, the hub bearings would wear prematurely. They didn't on my first 8 speed hub and haven't so far on my latest 11 speed hub! I'm now not so worried about keeping chain or belt nice and tight. Not so much that you notice the additional drag, but enough to prevent any slack in the system. Chain and particularly belt alignment is also key to smooth reliable operation.
ii. For chain drive go for the best quality chain you can afford. The original cheapo Nexus chain fitted to my first hub bike only lasted about a year and in that time wore so much (I hadn't checked it) that it took the chain-ring and sprocket with it so I replaced the lot and took the opportunity to up the gearing by adding a couple extra teeth to the chain-ring which was a nice wide Race-Face single-speed ring. I also fitted an expensive, chunky Gusset Slink half link chain thinking that would be optimised for single-speed setups.... wrong. It over stretched within a matter of weeks and I am not a big, heavy or powerful rider. After that I just stuck to high-end Shimano, Sram or KMC chains designed for road applications and these would typically last a couple of years or more each, the more expensive they were, the less they would stretch and also the less susceptible they would be to corrosion on the chain sides - a problem on an all weather single-speed setup where the front derailleur isn't scraping the sides of the chain all the time! Shimano mid to top range chains were generally the best.
iii. I have had no problems with the Versa 11 brifters that I have been running for the last couple of years and few thousand miles. Although I got them at a discounted price, they still seemed expensive compared to similar Shimano offerings and I was possibly slightly disappointed in their weight and slightly agricultural/clunky feel compared to Shimano or Sram but I fitted them, with a Jagwire barrel adjuster for the gear cable, and have never looked back - they have been great.I have quite small hands so the sweep of the down change lever is quite wide and whilst I find it easy to use from the hoods, it is less easy in the drops. Not a big issue though as usually when I am in the drops it is on long runs where I'm not changing gear anyway.
iv. Di2 plus Alfine hub gears DOES make sense! It is awesome! I just wish I could fit the Di2 kit and motor drive unit from my 8 speed Di2 hub onto my 11 speed mechanical hubs - sadly it seems this is not possible. When Di2 Alfine was first announced I thought 'what is the point'. Whereas derailleur systems can be tricky to set up initially, and then require constant adjustment and often suffer from mis-shifts, under-shifts, over-shifts etc, so really benefit from electronic shifting, I had never had any problems with my mechanically shifted hubs gears and apart from occasional cable adjustment which was easy to do, even on the move, were much more reliable in all conditions. I thought that Di2 added to Alfine was just a solution to a problem that didn't exist! Then I had an opportunity to buy a bike that met all my requirements at that time, but also had Di2, which wasn't on my 'list' and it was massively discounted. Ever keen to try something new, as a spur of the moment type of thing I went for it. For the slight weight penalty it is definitely worth it, and I'd really like it on my other hub geared bikes now, which isn't going to happen! Shifting is faultless and now with the latest firmware and Shimano e-tube software I can switch the shift buttons to replicate the operation of my Versa mechanical shifters (i.e. small button = higher gears), I can change the shift speed, I can play around with multi-shifts where holding the buttons can move multiple gears at once and there are a number of other parameters to tinker with! Definitely the way to go, and the battery lasts for ages.

If I think of anything more that might be of use - I'll add it here.

Maybe I have just been lucky with my Alfine hubs? Maybe most problems experienced by people are just down to setup and cabling issues? I don't know but personally I think for some types of riding - i.e. for me where I want day-in, day-out reliability with minimum maintenance for commutes in all weathers, they just can't be beaten. Add belt drive and disc brakes to the equation and I think that makes the perfect low maintenance commuting bike.
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barrym
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by barrym »

What an excellent and informative post. Thank you.

Just to complete the picture, can you say what the bikes are? Particularly the belt drive.
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Barry
Winfried
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Winfried »

Thanks much for the infos.

shutuplegz wrote:v. Always allow for cable stretch. Fit a barrel adjuster and screw it fully in when the cable is new so you can take up the slack as the cable gradually stretches.


I'll add to this:
1. When screwing/unscrewing the barrel adjuster, make sure you pull it out slighty before turning, as the barrel contains a spring (at least the RapidFire shifter on the Alfine 11). I had one clueless worker at a DIY workshop ruin my shifter by force-screwing it with a wrench :-/

2. Use metal ferrules instead of plastic ones: As you explained, indexing is the key, and metal ferrules won't compress as much as plastic ones.
Roadster
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Roadster »

shutuplegz wrote:Things I have learnt, noticed or done:
a. Alfine hub gears are sensitive to cable issues, 11 speed much more so than 8 speed so:
i. Always use good quality outer and matching inner cables (I have always used Shimano or Jagwire inner and outer matching sets)...
...Maybe most problems experienced by people are just down to setup and cabling issues?

Couldn't agree more. I eliminated all shifting problems with my Alfine 8 by the simple expedient of swapping the standard gear cable which came with the bike for a Jagwire Universal Sport gear cable with compressionless outer.
Are my yellow dots aligned at the moment? I dunno... I haven't looked since fitting the good quality cable more than a year ago... I haven't needed to... :)
Brucey
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used hub, update....

Post by Brucey »

some folk may recall that I bought a used A11 hub, cable, CJ and shifter from a fellow forum member last year, after he had experienced persistent slippage and some oil leakage problems. I initially reported that, following an internal inspection and finding some faults with the cabling, it had (provisionally) passed muster on road test, built into a 'mule' bike for testing purposes.

However some time later I tackled some steeper hills with it and to my extreme annoyance the thing did slip in a couple of the low gears. It typically slipped after about five or ten firm pedal strokes in any given gear; more than I could manage on the flat during other tests, which is perhaps why I hadn't seen it before. I was, to coin a phrase, 'as sick as a parrot'. I left the 'mule' bike languishing in a dark corner for the entire winter and resolved not to jump to any conclusions about it until I'd had a better look at it.

I finally got around to it the other day. I hadn't been looking forward to stripping the hub again because I'd lubed it with my super lube; it is great stuff but it is very very messy to deal with. I found two things I wasn't happy with;

1) I'd left a tiny amount of free play in the hub bearings and
2) even though I'd looked at this very thing before, I concluded that there was a small error in the timing marks; i.e. when 'correctly adjusted' the axle pawls were not quite at full lift after all.

The slight free play, in combination with the adjustment error, could easily explain why it was that the slippage only occurred after a few pedal strokes; if the axle pawls were not quite fully lifted, they could squirm out of engagement after a few pedal strokes. However the proof of the pudding would be in the eating...

Today I took the mule out for another run with the revised adjustment (which is less than 1mm more cable pull than is required to align the CJ marks 'perfectly') and the hub was perfect; no slippage in any gear. I rode each gear, in and out of the saddle, up a reasonable gradient, several times over.

I think my hub is an early one and these had a problem with the tolerancing of the CJ. The fixed part of the CJ has a little lash where it mounts to the hub and for all I know the marks might be 'correct' if the fixed arm is set in the middle of the lash. But in use the arm is pulled one way vs the lash and this may be where the error arises.

I also investigated the shifter; this 'felt weird' and unpredictable when downshifting between 11 and 10; often I'd go from 11 to 9 instead, even if I didn't mean to. The A11 flat bar shifter (unlike the A8 one) allows two downshifts in one go and to get this to work it is considerably more complicated inside. I found two faults; firstly a cam and follower (that exists only to give the downshift trigger a two-stage feel) needed to be reprofiled and secondly the hook end of one of the springs was just touching one of the moving parts in the 11-10 downshift. It took a little while but I fixed both faults and the shifter is much better in use now.

I have also built a special bracket to allow A11 and A8 shifters to be used with dropped bars, as described here
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115182
Image

Shifting is accomplished from the tops; the shifter itself is unmodified.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shutuplegz
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by shutuplegz »

barrym wrote:What an excellent and informative post. Thank you.

Just to complete the picture, can you say what the bikes are? Particularly the belt drive.


Hi, the first eight speed one was a Cannondale Bad Boy. Superb commuting bike, now sold. The latest eight speed Di2 one is a Genesis Day One, bought at a 50% discount, plus 15% off other accessories! (Otherwise I would have baulked at the price).

The two belt drive bikes are both bespoke Ti frames/forks, one I specced and had built for me (flat bar, hyd disc brakes, built for touring), the other I did all myself by dealing direct with frame manufacturer in China! (Drop bars, disc brakes, fast commuter). Saved myself a packet on the commuter!
Pitchpole
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Pitchpole »

Just a random update after year round country commuting 20km each way for 4,000 km. The route has several short but steep hills (20%). The hub is on a Genesis day one.
I am about two minutes slower and there is a bit of a disconnected feel to the drive system. The gear change is very rapid and obviously should not be undertaken under load. The bike is so quiet which is fantastic, tyre and wind noise only. The range is perfectly fine for me and greater than the compact double on my other bike. Maintenance is simple, I bought a large can of oil at extortionate price and use it to change the oil frequently but it only takes a few minutes. Every couple of weeks I check the cable adjustment is right.
If cable alignment isn't checked you do get odd effects, some crunching noises. If the bike is leant with the drive side lower oil leaks out, particularly if taken in from the cold to somewhere warm when the pressure in the hub probably increases. Changing a tube is a pain and I have bought a flat spanner with a 15mm slot but which can be used for lots of other things on the bike.

Overall it needs a little care but much less maintenance than a derailleur used in the same conditions. It is definately slower and heavier.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Cyril Haearn »

580 posts about fixing and adjusting a hub gear, is that normal?

Is there a hub gear that is simple and reliable, that one may *forget*?
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squeaker
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by squeaker »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Is there a hub gear that is simple and reliable, that one may *forget*?
SA & Sachs 3-speed hubs just need the odd drop of oil from time to time, IME.
"42"
Brucey
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

Cyril Haearn wrote:580 posts about fixing and adjusting a hub gear, is that normal?


there have been very many posts in this thread that are not related to the hub being faulty, too. I guess most of the posts about the A11 hub on this forum are in this thread.

Is there a hub gear that is simple and reliable, that one may *forget*?


Not entirely. Stuff happens; bearings wear slightly, lube dries out or leaks away, cables settle slightly, start to bind and affect shifting, shifters get knocked and broken, or don't get lubed.

Neglect will kill anything. The best you can hope for is that the maintenance isn't too onerous and that if/when things go wrong, the system signals its distress in a fairly benign way.

Arguably the sturmey archer AW (in its original form) was a successful hub because it did most of the things on the wish list. When the adjustment is bad, the first thing that happens is normally that second gear will start to slip. This slippage has to get quite bad (or be repeated many times over) before there is any real risk that the hub would be damaged internally. A few drops of oil every now and then (in the hub and shifter) and the things keep on running for decades.

Unsurprisingly the more gears you have, the more there is to go wrong. The shimano hubs (7,8,11s) suffer from the twin evils that small changes in cable performance are likely to occur, and that the hub is sensitive to those changes. Add in some dodgy tolerancing and you have a recipe for hubs that don't work quite as well as they should, not without a degree of care and attention that is somewhat at odds with their raison d'etre.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
amediasatex
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by amediasatex »

580 posts about fixing and adjusting a hub gear, is that normal?


Detailed technical discussion on other subjects have gone on just as long, and this isn't so much about 'fixing' a hub it's about general usage reports, maintenance and adjustment. I think you'll find the internet is full of a lot more posts of a similar nature on derailleurs!

Is there a hub gear that is simple and reliable, that one may *forget*?


sort of... and there'll be a compromises

Either it'll 'only' have 3 gears*, or it'll cost > £1k**, and I dare say if you've spent that much on a hub you're not likely to forget it!
They're still not immune to problems and still require maintenance, if you really want fit-and-forget then fixed/SS is the only option, but the other comprises might not suit your use case.

The 8 speed Alfine is considerably less finicky than the 11, altough with slightly reduced gear range, but it's a reasonably reliable, and relatively cheap IGH for normal uses. The 11 isn't a bad hub at all, just needs a little more care and attention than the 8.

Now, if someone could make a hub with Rohloff range and reliability, with indexing in the hub instead of shifter, at Alfine prices and with flat, drop bar, and downtube shifter options they'd be onto a winner!

* Sturmey Archer
** Rohloff
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Easy decision - I will upgrade to single fixed :D
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