Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

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rofan
Posts: 142
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby rofan » 8 Jul 2012, 6:52pm

TwoWheelsGood wrote: Shimano definitely states that you CAN shift under load,

"under load" where did you read this? "while pedaling" YES

SI-37R0A-001-00: ....You can shift gears while pedaling, but on rare occasions the pawls and
ratchet inside the hub may produce some noise afterwards as part of normal
gear shifting operation.

SI-6TV0A-001-00
– To avoid serious injuries:
Reduce the force being applied to the pedals
when shifting the lever. If you try to force
operation of the shifting lever while the
pedals are being turned strongly, your feet
may come off the pedals and the bicycle may
topple over, which could result in serious
injury

ro

rofan
Posts: 142
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby rofan » 8 Jul 2012, 6:54pm

jfarnhill wrote: already considering a 14 speed version. .


patent letters say 15!
ro

rofan
Posts: 142
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby rofan » 8 Jul 2012, 6:56pm

MacBludgeon wrote:...For example the Rohloff is meant to be designed with minor parts that will shear to avoid serious damage in these circumstances. I'm sure that's well designed and as effective as the other aspects of the Rohloff, but I still don't want to put it to the test.


at a torque of 400Nm. Are you really afraid of this?

ro

jb
Posts: 909
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jb » 9 Jul 2012, 11:41am

Brucey wrote:Ultimately having the indexing in the hub, not the control lever, is arguably a better way. I suppose it may not provide complete immunity from cable problems, but it should certainly reduce them.

I guess if Shimano hadn't been 'thinking' (and I use the term loosely) about Alfine Di2 then maybe they would have been more likely to put the indexing inside the hub, and/or have a more weatherproof control arrangement.

cheers

The big problem with internal hub indexing is the shifter has to be moved both directions thus a need for two cables as per Rohlof. This limits it to twist grip and makes cable routing a bit untidy Which is why Shamano have tried to avoid it I suspect.
Cheers
J Bro

TwoWheelsGood
Posts: 189
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 8:32pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby TwoWheelsGood » 9 Jul 2012, 1:44pm

rofan wrote:
TwoWheelsGood wrote: Shimano definitely states that you CAN shift under load,

"under load" where did you read this? "while pedaling" YES

SI-37R0A-001-00: ....You can shift gears while pedaling, but on rare occasions the pawls and
ratchet inside the hub may produce some noise afterwards as part of normal
gear shifting operation.

SI-6TV0A-001-00
– To avoid serious injuries:
Reduce the force being applied to the pedals
when shifting the lever. If you try to force
operation of the shifting lever while the
pedals are being turned strongly, your feet
may come off the pedals and the bicycle may
topple over, which could result in serious
injury

Surely ANY amount of pedal pressure would count as a load on the hub, therefore Shimano are just covering themselves against the possibility of legal action (especially in the US) if their "shift support mechanism" (Note 3 in their SI-37R0A-001-00 document) fails due to a higher load than it can cope with:

The 11-speed hub has a built-in mechanism to support shifting. When the support mechanism operates during shifting, noise or vibration may occur.

Shimano does not specifically state that you have to stop pedalling before you change gear as was the case with (at least) certain Sturmey-Archer hubs (though an older 5 speed hub seemed OK with changes under moderate pedal pressure), therefore you can change gear whilst turning the pedals under moderate load according to Shimano. World class athletes and very heavy people will obviously be able to apply more pedal pressure when compared to the 'average' person.

Brucey
Posts: 37486
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 9 Jul 2012, 1:48pm

jb wrote: The big problem with internal hub indexing is the shifter has to be moved both directions thus a need for two cables as per Rohlof. This limits it to twist grip and makes cable routing a bit untidy Which is why Shamano have tried to avoid it I suspect.

well normally yes, but I'm sure this could be overcome. I'm thinking of a SRAM doubletap type mechanism, but on the end of a cable.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

jfarnhill
Posts: 37
Joined: 22 Jun 2012, 1:14pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jfarnhill » 23 Jul 2012, 2:20pm

OK, so an update on my Alfine11 and apologies I haven't been on here for a while to answer questions on my post or comment. It's been back to Madison and was rebuilt so I was expecting that maybe, just maybe it would be fixed. The letter from Madison states that it's had a full rebuild, service and the external oil seals have been replaced so hopefully that should means less oil on my garage floor :wink: . What I found on my first test ride is that it was pretty much as it was when I dropped it in (ie only 1st, 4th and 8th had minor clatter and it was still skipping on some changes). Cue wanting to take the thing back to the Milton Keynes HQ of Madison and throw it at them! However, not to be deterred, full of the joys of Wiggins winning and having paced into work with someone else out to enjoy the sun I got careless and dropped the rear tire down a grate sufficiently to pinch puncture it. Given I'd got to get to work, I repaired the puncture and slotted the wheel back in the bike as quickly as without noting where the armature was. As it happens it wasn't down by the side of the chain stay as it came back from the LBS but as much up above it as it would go and, behold, the clattering was a lot less pronounced. I've got to do a bit more testing to establish whether this minor detail really does make a difference but it sort of answers a few queries on here as to whether it's better to put the bike in a workshop stand and tune the hub to either side of the yellow dots lining up. There is definitely something on routing and cable tension that the Alfine11 is very sensitive to.

Responding to other posts re Rohloff et al having two cables, I'd much rather have that than clattery gears that skip and bang and I'm regretting somewhat not doing a custom build as I used to on my old racing bikes. There are now some very elegant solutions for drops and twist shifting that I'd be more than happy with, given I'm from the era of racing with friction shift levers on the downtube.

Hope all this continues to be helpful.

ukdodger
Posts: 2992
Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 5:32pm
Location: Sunny Surrey

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby ukdodger » 23 Jul 2012, 3:59pm

jfarnhill wrote:OK, so an update on my Alfine11 and apologies I haven't been on here for a while to answer questions on my post or comment. It's been back to Madison and was rebuilt so I was expecting that maybe, just maybe it would be fixed. The letter from Madison states that it's had a full rebuild, service and the external oil seals have been replaced so hopefully that should means less oil on my garage floor :wink: . What I found on my first test ride is that it was pretty much as it was when I dropped it in (ie only 1st, 4th and 8th had minor clatter and it was still skipping on some changes). Cue wanting to take the thing back to the Milton Keynes HQ of Madison and throw it at them! However, not to be deterred, full of the joys of Wiggins winning and having paced into work with someone else out to enjoy the sun I got careless and dropped the rear tire down a grate sufficiently to pinch puncture it. Given I'd got to get to work, I repaired the puncture and slotted the wheel back in the bike as quickly as without noting where the armature was. As it happens it wasn't down by the side of the chain stay as it came back from the LBS but as much up above it as it would go and, behold, the clattering was a lot less pronounced. I've got to do a bit more testing to establish whether this minor detail really does make a difference but it sort of answers a few queries on here as to whether it's better to put the bike in a workshop stand and tune the hub to either side of the yellow dots lining up. There is definitely something on routing and cable tension that the Alfine11 is very sensitive to.

Responding to other posts re Rohloff et al having two cables, I'd much rather have that than clattery gears that skip and bang and I'm regretting somewhat not doing a custom build as I used to on my old racing bikes. There are now some very elegant solutions for drops and twist shifting that I'd be more than happy with, given I'm from the era of racing with friction shift levers on the downtube.

Hope all this continues to be helpful.


Hooray for friction shift. Never gave me any problems. Glad things are looking up for you.

jfarnhill
Posts: 37
Joined: 22 Jun 2012, 1:14pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jfarnhill » 27 Jul 2012, 11:54am

Hooray for friction shift indeed! Grew up on Campy friction shifted derailleurs and could always get them working smoothly.

Latest update is that the clattering has got no better and after a carefully worded letter to Madison's Warranty Manager they are going to take the whole bike back and attempt to resolve the problem once and for all. To be fair to Madison, they've jumped on this really quickly and the warranty manager has phoned me the morning he received the letter promising to turn the job around in a week so well done them and him. The proof of the pudding, as always, will be in the eating.

Interestingly, Madison have told my LBS that as long as the yellow dots line up on the hub then it will shift correctly. There is a bit of an urban myth, apparently, about the cable length between the nut and ferule being absolutely vital. I remain to be convinced on that one.

ukdodger
Posts: 2992
Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 5:32pm
Location: Sunny Surrey

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby ukdodger » 27 Jul 2012, 6:48pm

jfarnhill wrote:Hooray for friction shift indeed! Grew up on Campy friction shifted derailleurs and could always get them working smoothly.

Latest update is that the clattering has got no better and after a carefully worded letter to Madison's Warranty Manager they are going to take the whole bike back and attempt to resolve the problem once and for all. To be fair to Madison, they've jumped on this really quickly and the warranty manager has phoned me the morning he received the letter promising to turn the job around in a week so well done them and him. The proof of the pudding, as always, will be in the eating.

Interestingly, Madison have told my LBS that as long as the yellow dots line up on the hub then it will shift correctly. There is a bit of an urban myth, apparently, about the cable length between the nut and ferule being absolutely vital. I remain to be convinced on that one.


Why do they always say things like that. I've installed my 11 speed exactly as per instructions and with the dots in perfect alignment it DOES NOT shift correctly. You have to 'tune' the position of the dots one way or the other. It's as if they believe denying it for long enough will make it true.

jfarnhill
Posts: 37
Joined: 22 Jun 2012, 1:14pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jfarnhill » 30 Jul 2012, 1:07pm

I must admit I am highly cynical on the dots thing and there are some very good arguments over on hubstripping about the dots being able to be lined up and shifting still not working so cable length/routing is more important (see http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/2010/ ... m-shimano/). The most frustrating thing I find is that I can fix an indexed or friction shift derailleur so that it works silently save from the usual whir of gears at work. The Alfine11 seems to be straying into alchemy to get it to work right and suggested solutions don't seem to make sense. If it didn't cost so much and I didn't have two toddlers 'helping' me then I'd be tempted to take it apart to understand how it works!

ukdodger
Posts: 2992
Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 5:32pm
Location: Sunny Surrey

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby ukdodger » 30 Jul 2012, 7:12pm

jfarnhill wrote:I must admit I am highly cynical on the dots thing and there are some very good arguments over on hubstripping about the dots being able to be lined up and shifting still not working so cable length/routing is more important (see http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/2010/ ... m-shimano/). The most frustrating thing I find is that I can fix an indexed or friction shift derailleur so that it works silently save from the usual whir of gears at work. The Alfine11 seems to be straying into alchemy to get it to work right and suggested solutions don't seem to make sense. If it didn't cost so much and I didn't have two toddlers 'helping' me then I'd be tempted to take it apart to understand how it works!


I think bottom line is they've stretched all the tolerances to cram another three gears into the 8 speed hub.

jb
Posts: 909
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jb » 31 Jul 2012, 9:45am

ukdodger wrote:
jfarnhill wrote:I must admit I am highly cynical on the dots thing and there are some very good arguments over on hubstripping about the dots being able to be lined up and shifting still not working so cable length/routing is more important (see http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/2010/ ... m-shimano/). The most frustrating thing I find is that I can fix an indexed or friction shift derailleur so that it works silently save from the usual whir of gears at work. The Alfine11 seems to be straying into alchemy to get it to work right and suggested solutions don't seem to make sense. If it didn't cost so much and I didn't have two toddlers 'helping' me then I'd be tempted to take it apart to understand how it works!


I think bottom line is they've stretched all the tolerances to cram another three gears into the 8 speed hub.

If you look at the photo (on the last page) of the selector shaft and axle stripped and mounted back in the frame you'll see that one of the selector cut outs actually goes to a knife edge (right next to the helical sun gear). This has to be positioned directly over the pawl to keep it depressed. any slight misalignment and the pawl will stick up and snag the ratchet teeth.

So you are right they have tried to cram too many gears onto the available space on the selector bar.
Last edited by jb on 31 Jul 2012, 10:27am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers

J Bro

Brucey
Posts: 37486
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 31 Jul 2012, 10:17am

if this sharp notch corresponds with gear #9 that might explain the slipping observed.

A lot of frames flex enough that if the gear cable is mounted on the frame, it can 'pull' and throw the adjustment off . A big clue that this is going on is if the hub slips on the same (i.e. left or right) pedal stroke.

I can't see how the magic 184mm adjustment makes a difference BTW; surely all it does is put the correct gear adjustment within the range offered by the barrel adjuster?

BTW is it likely that the rubber bellows can get dragged into the cassette joint? If so this would cause troubles for sure.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

jb
Posts: 909
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jb » 31 Jul 2012, 11:03am

You have to be careful to pull the bellows back from the pulley when its fully out or that does indeed happen. Also grit getting into the pulley groove can cause diameter increase.

I must say, for Shamano who are normally obsessed with reliability, perfect operation and ease of use - even if that means they reduce the life span - this hub is a bit of a let down
Cheers

J Bro