Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

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vanGoose
Posts: 12
Joined: 15 Mar 2018, 8:47pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby vanGoose » 27 Sep 2018, 8:39pm

Oops... so i've been too harsh it seems.

Yes the premium Inter-8 has roller bearings as same as Alfine, so ETA is similar. But yes, too, the lesser efforts taken on sealing the hub will make it last shorter - or require more maintenance, whatever you prefer.

Using twin chainwheels IS an option. I don't really want to start a religuous discussion, but to me combining a hub with derailleur shifting would not be an option.

I rode derailleurs in the early days. Even on my A-8 i started off with the twin chainwheel arrangement as originally sold by Shimano. HATE IT - really:

- To get "evenly spaced" gears, i permanently have to shift both systems. Takes more time and "thinking". Costs much fun.
- Shifting the chain puts an angle on it which significantly increases wear.
- Shifting the chain hinders me to put an enclosure around it (chain glider, "holland bike" like stuff).

After short time, i replaced the chain wheels with a Schlumpf speed drive (1:1.65 planetary gear in the pedals assy.) and added a Hesling Excelle chain box. LOVE IT.

When i go for an IGH then my main motivation is that i want to reduce sprocket wear, chain wear, chain maintenance and all that goes with it. Sure, putting an enclosure bears the risk to just "forget" the chain which would make things worse. But it also GREATLY reduces wear due to keeping dirt outside. Just a bit of lube once/twice in a year, maybe clean it nevertheless, and that's it.

The only thing i can think about better than a packed chain is a (open) belt drive - which also allows for one chain wheel only.

Aiming to reduce maintenance needed, going for an IGH also means i want THE HUB to be low-maintenance-requiring. I opened, cleaned and re-greased my A-8 just once in those years i rode it. Just 2 years after i bought it brand-new. Shimano put veeeery little grease only and re-lubing it after run-in done is anyway a good idea. After five years (>15000km), i replaced chain, chainwheel, sprocket. That's it - trouble-free operation enjoyed.

With the newer hubs utilizing oil lubrication, maintenance becomes more important. At least once every two years oil needs replacement. I only accept this because, different from greasing, it can be done without dismantling of the internals.

OK, we now have a new discussion starting, do we...?
Best regards
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14

Brucey
Posts: 32734
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 27 Sep 2018, 9:08pm

I agree that an IGH-only system is more elegant but the pragmatist in me says that a simpler IGH and some (limited) cog-swapping makes some sense too. For example the Brompton 6s system is a very good way of sidestepping the multiple deficiencies (both real and perceived) in IGHs that have more than three speeds. The fact that a derailleur isn't normally put into a chaincase is really because the parts are not available, not because it isn't possible. There are various ways of fitting multiple sprockets onto most IGHs but only a few allow this as a bolt-on option using standard parts that you can buy.

http://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=SAAW&KB=36&RZ=22,15,18&UF=2150&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=gearInches

shows an example of how you can combine a Sturmey Archer AW with a 3s sprocket cluster; both technologies are about as complicated as a lump of wood yet the result is a really useful spread of nine gear ratios. Folk have ridden round the world on a setup like this.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Macadam
Posts: 7
Joined: 3 Sep 2018, 12:38pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Macadam » 7 Nov 2018, 5:48pm

To VanGoose,

It would be nice if you can open and inspect a Di2 hub in order to see how to transform a mechanical version into a Di2 version and see the differences :D

Macadam

rofan
Posts: 137
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby rofan » 29 Dec 2018, 9:30am

vanGoose wrote:...

My book grew to 52 pages, ...

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

A few notes:

5. The link is valid until 2018-06-21.

..

Link has been renewed, valid for 30 days again. THIS is supposed to work:

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw (actually same link as before but validity is now extended)

Everybody is free to download and share, as you like.

...


Did anybody download the 52p version ? PM please.
vanGoose cannot be contacted via this forum
tks

vanGoose
Posts: 12
Joined: 15 Mar 2018, 8:47pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby vanGoose » 1 Jan 2019, 4:40pm

rofan wrote:
vanGoose wrote:...

My book grew to 52 pages, ...

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

A few notes:

5. The link is valid until 2018-06-21.

..

Link has been renewed, valid for 30 days again. THIS is supposed to work:

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw (actually same link as before but validity is now extended)

Everybody is free to download and share, as you like.

...


Did anybody download the 52p version ? PM please.
vanGoose cannot be contacted via this forum
tks

I may not be addressable, but actually... i get informed when i am quoted...

Renewed the download link again, nice to know that somebody is still interested.

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

Validity now until 2019-01-31, enjoy!

oh - by the way: i wish everybody a great year 2019!! My "2nd set" A-11 keeps operating almost trouble-free. Every once in a while it gets a little bit mad and slips in gears 2..4. I shift through all upper gears, then it calms down again. Looks like an early sign of increasing friction in the cable so it looses some accuracy which it - up to now - reclaims after a full move.
Best regards
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14

rofan
Posts: 137
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability 7001-11 the better Alfine 11?

Postby rofan » 8 Jan 2019, 5:47pm

7001-11 the better Alfine 11?
Maybe, should be.
My impression: tolerances smaller , my findings: precision higher

There are 6 spare parts where the spare part number has been changed

Sun Gear 4 --> contact area lathed (instead of original surface from sintering(?))
Carrier 2 Unit --> inner sun gear: contact area lathed
Sun Gear 2 --> contact area lathed
Carrier 1 Unit --> contact area to clutch changed: shape and number of teeth 10->9
Clutch Unit --> number of teeth 20->18 - more room for engagement
Hub Axle Unit --> contact area of sun gear 1 lathed (not yet completely stripped)

Sealing stuff not changed

tmac100
Posts: 32
Joined: 13 May 2016, 1:47pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby tmac100 » 9 Jan 2019, 12:29pm

vanGoose wrote:
rofan wrote:
vanGoose wrote:...

My book grew to 52 pages, ...

.........
..
Did anybody download the 52p version ? PM please.
vanGoose cannot be contacted via this forum
tks

I may not be addressable, but actually... i get informed when i am quoted...

Renewed the download link again, nice to know that somebody is still interested.

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

Validity now until 2019-01-31, enjoy!

oh - by the way: i wish everybody a great year 2019!! My "2nd set" A-11 keeps operating almost trouble-free. Every once in a while it gets a little bit mad and slips in gears 2..4. I shift through all upper gears, then it calms down again. Looks like an early sign of increasing friction in the cable so it looses some accuracy which it - up to now - reclaims after a full move.


Yes it works! Downloaded both pics and 52 page book on 8 Jan 19. Thanks.

Suffolker
Posts: 141
Joined: 5 Jul 2014, 7:04am

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Suffolker » 9 Jan 2019, 12:35pm

Downloaded the book AOK. It's very interesting, and thanks for making it available.

Winfried
Posts: 80
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Jan 2019, 9:23am

Hello,

First of all, I'm not very technical so it could be something obvious to seasoned bike mechanics.

After some head scratching, I figured out the occasional creaking/cracking noises I could hear while pedaling on my four-year-old Alfine 11 + Gates CDN belt drive bike came from a damaged bearing race on the drive side (hopefully, the one on the non-drive side is OK):

Image

At this point, I'm stuck at how to remove the (Gates?) ball ring that secures the sprocket, and finally get to the now loose bearing balls left from the "Ball Retainer P (3/16" x 13)" (18 in the schematics, part #Y34R98070).

Image

Do I need some Shimano specific spanner to loosen that ring before removing the sprocket and finally getting to the loose bearing balls?

Thank you.

Image

rofan
Posts: 137
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby rofan » 14 Jan 2019, 10:03am

Winfried wrote:
Do I need some Shimano specific spanner to loosen that ring before removing the sprocket and finally getting to the loose bearing balls?


if it is "sure fit"
no
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H3DEq7RZ2Y

Winfried
Posts: 80
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Jan 2019, 10:07am

Thanks. It looks like my bike doesn't use a SureFit. I'll double-check with Gates.

Besides that, regardless of the sprocket type, it looks like the Alfine requires two extra tools:

  • Part #Y13098021 TL-S701 Right Hand Cone Removal Tool
  • Part #Y13098022 TL-S702 Right Hand Cone Installation Tool

All that just to replace a $€£2 ball bearing :?

--
Edit: I wonder if I actually need to remove the sprocket just to get to the ball bearing. Can't the sprocket be left in place, and the only tools needed are the TL-S701 + TL-S702 mentioned above?

rofan
Posts: 137
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby rofan » 14 Jan 2019, 11:28am

Winfried wrote:Thanks. It looks like my bike doesn't use a SureFit. I'll double-check with Gates.


if there is the snap ring 39 use a small screw driver (it is not easy to see it)
and I think you have SureFit

But you need not really remove it, could be only easier to handle.


Besides that, regardless of the sprocket type, it looks like the Alfine requires two extra tools:

  • Part #Y13098021 TL-S701 Right Hand Cone Removal Tool
  • Part #Y13098022 TL-S702 Right Hand Cone Installation Tool


yes because some springs inside could be "touched" without tools
All that just to replace a $€£2 ball bearing :?



maybe you have a LBS who has the tool to lend it(but I am afraid there are not many, who disassemble an A11)

Winfried
Posts: 80
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Jan 2019, 11:32am

Yes, I removed the snap ring (purple arrow) using two screwsdrivers, but there's still that three-eared ring (from Gates?) and the cone that stand in the way of the ball bearing.

Image

rofan
Posts: 137
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby rofan » 14 Jan 2019, 11:41am

Winfried wrote:Y there's still that three-eared ring (from Gates?)

that is one part with the sprocket

and the cone that stand in the way of the ball bearing.

needs the tools

Winfried
Posts: 80
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Jan 2019, 12:16pm

Thanks for the info.

Hopefully, a LBS will have the tools to perform that light surgery.