Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

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DoctorRad
Posts: 96
Joined: 10 Nov 2010, 5:48pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby DoctorRad » 23 Oct 2019, 4:11pm

meandros wrote:Is it possible to lace the Alfine-11 in 4-cross or is the hubshel too big to allow for such extreme spoke lenghts?


I have a 32-hole Alfine 11 which was stock on my Genesis Fortitude. I broke two spokes at the nipple - probably because of butting there - and had the rear wheel rebuilt. The builder 'strongly recommended' that I went with 2-cross, as in his experience, it resulted in a more reliable wheel. This was for a 29er / 700c rim.

Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 5 Dec 2019, 7:25pm

I worked on my Alfine 11 because there was a bit of sideway play in the wheel that I didn't use to have.

Does the hub look normal to you, especially the "Ball Retainer S (3/16" x 26)" (part 13 in the diagram)?

Also, after putting everything back together, the cassette joint "dialer" isn't going as far as it used to (about 1/4 of a turn), resulting in a loose shifter cable: I must shift up two or three times before the cable tightens. I did check with the Shimano tool, and the anchor bolt is still at the required 184mm so the issue appears to be in the Alfine somehow.

Has someone experienced this, or could offer some hints?

Thank you.


Evesie
Posts: 5
Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 9:46pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Evesie » 6 Dec 2019, 8:15pm

How far have you stripped the hub internals down on the driveside? The large amount of end float on the clutch housing (17) approx 12s into your video suggest that the two internal tabs on the driveside inner bearing cone (20) are not in the slots on the axle?

meandros
Posts: 59
Joined: 1 Jan 2018, 7:34pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby meandros » 7 Dec 2019, 3:22pm

It's not looking good at all, Winfried. You should really send it to a proper IGH mechanic for correct reassembly and lubrication. As it looks from here, it needs a full rebuild and you should not tinker or attempt to use it as is or risk damaging the hub. If you choose to go the other way and replace the whole internal assembly, I can help you with that, sent you a pm.
Last edited by meandros on 7 Dec 2019, 5:03pm, edited 2 times in total.

meandros
Posts: 59
Joined: 1 Jan 2018, 7:34pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby meandros » 7 Dec 2019, 4:57pm

DoctorRad wrote:I have a 32-hole Alfine 11 which was stock on my Genesis Fortitude. I broke two spokes at the nipple - probably because of butting there - and had the rear wheel rebuilt. The builder 'strongly recommended' that I went with 2-cross, as in his experience, it resulted in a more reliable wheel. This was for a 29er / 700c rim.


I see great results with a mixed 1cross-driveside/3cross-brakeside for 32h rims as it makes for incredibly stiff and zippy wheel that does not put strain on the flanges when braking. For the brake side I'd use as many crosses as it allows, so for instance I'd go to 4crosses on a 36h rim. In this past year I've built two A11s wheels with 27.5" 32h rims using this pattern and have seen incredible result: no tinkering with the retruing/retensioning part after initial buildup. One of the wheels went out on a ~2500km roundabout on a heavily packedup heavy a$$ e-bike, no problemo upon return and its still going just as strong on a delivery bike used 5days a week 9hr a day. The other wheel built on this pattern is my own, I ride it on my steel-is-so-real-its-still-the-deal 79er and am stoked with it so far. If I were a gambling man, I'd go full on 1cross as it makes for non-touching spokes.

Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 8 Dec 2019, 5:19pm

Evesie wrote:How far have you stripped the hub internals down on the driveside? The large amount of end float on the clutch housing (17) approx 12s into your video suggest that the two internal tabs on the driveside inner bearing cone (20) are not in the slots on the axle?


Right on target. I didn't hit the cone hard enough, which kept the cassette joint from rotating all the way to the left like it should.

There's still a bit of lateral play in the wheel which I can't explain since both cones are as tight as could be, but I'll just live with it.

Thank you very much.

Brucey
Posts: 39899
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 8 Dec 2019, 9:37pm

the LH cone only has one or two 'spare turns' so there doesn't need to be much wrong with the hub before you can't adjust the bearings properly. Thus if there is free play in the hub then something is wrong, and given what has happened thus far I'd expect it to be the shift control gubbins on the RH end of the axle out of place and this can

a) stop the RH cone from going on all the way and
b) stop the hub from shifting properly.

Under normal circumstances you can (with care) remove the RH cone without disturbing the shift control parts. However it is easy enough to disturb the parts so that they start moving rightwards on the axle and once they do this they may not just be pushed back again.

The other thing I have seen in Alfine hubs (both 8s and 11s) is if the ring bearing gets worn, the LH cone needs to be adjusted more than normal and it can bottom out on the axle. In one case I have even seen a LH cone split because it was forced on too far and the hub was only made to work again by grinding a relief into the replacement cone.

I've not seen the video BTW; my internet connection isn't up to it right now.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 16 Dec 2019, 2:06pm

Thanks for the infos.

What parts do you mean with "shift control parts", and what should I try and see if that solves the issue?

I left the LHS bearings in place because it looked OK, but I replaced the two RHS bearings (13 and 18).

A4720BAF-01B0-495D-AF32-C6103E5BDA95.png

Brucey
Posts: 39899
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 16 Dec 2019, 4:15pm

see the axle part (#14) in the diagram? that comes with the shift control parts on it, assembled already. Online you can find instructions on how to reassemble this lot properly, but it ain't easy and (although it is possible to do it without) you are best off with several of the special tools listed.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Winfried
Posts: 103
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 28 Dec 2019, 10:49am

The shift control parts look similar to what I saw on the Net so I may not have to do anything there, but I do remember it wasn't holding steady during reassembly of the hub:

I'll take it apart again, and investigate.

Thank you.

DSCN8366.JPG

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vrW9ZjKenQHPTTLe6

jb
Posts: 946
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jb » 28 Dec 2019, 2:08pm

There a lot of bits of particles on there ,are they metal filings?

You also need to check for cracks around the gear wheel key, if you can see it without further dismantling they sometimes break at that point.
Cheers
J Bro

Ginger_sproket
Posts: 1
Joined: 10 Feb 2020, 2:18pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Ginger_sproket » 10 Feb 2020, 8:16pm

Hey Guys,

I am a new member to this forum and looking for a little advice regarding my Shimano alfine 11 hub. I am currently bikepacking through south America and have only put about 1200km on my new hub.

I originally had some teething issues with cable slip but after getting to know the adjustments I have it running really smooth and have had no issues with changing. I changed the oil after 1000km and the rolling and changing gears through the hub is great.

There is one issue that I'm hoping someone may be able to help me with as I am having trouble finding or contacting anyone with knowledge through South America.

Where the chainring attaches to the hub it seems to flex a great amount under load (freewheel?) The hub stays stationary but when you apply pressure to the chainring through the pedal it moves considerably. This is causing a huge loss in power especially now that I am doing alot of climbing, it appears apparent in all gears but in my lowest gears, where you apply plenty of torque you notice it the most. I understand with my frame you get a little flex but there is huge amount coming for the hub/chainring.

It is hard to explain with words so I will attach a link to small video explaining what I mean.

https://youtu.be/4gdINxlrICE

I have been traveling with a guy who is running a rohloff hub and have had a ride on his bike and ther is no such issue. I understand the Roloff is a more expensive hub but form the reviews and the tech advice online they should have very similar efficiency, especially in the lower gears.

I am traveling rather light (bikepacking not touring style) but with the way the bike is at the moment I am having a real hard time climbing. I have done over 35,000km tour cycling so understand what to expect climbing.

If you guys are able to have a look at the video and supply some advice on possible solutions it would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Ginger_sproket

jb
Posts: 946
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jb » 10 Feb 2020, 10:02pm

Hi, for it to happen in all gears I can only think that the output roller clutches have become worn and the sprocket needs to turn more than usual to get them to engage or there is a split in them which might be causing it spring back when the peddle is released.
Cheers

J Bro

jb
Posts: 946
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby jb » 10 Feb 2020, 10:32pm

The other thing it could be is a split or fractured sprocket gear, which would be easier and cheaper to fix. If you can film it again from really close up it may give a better idea.
Cheers

J Bro

meandros
Posts: 59
Joined: 1 Jan 2018, 7:34pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby meandros » 11 Feb 2020, 10:02am

Howdy Ginger_sprocket,

Hope your bkpk_trip is goin smooth, All-fine smooth, that is :D

The transmission behaviour you're observing is a feature of the rolling clutch mechanism within the hub. It is this mech which enables silent and smooth engagement. The All-fine way to go is "more spin, less torque" so you'll need to change your pedalling manevrisms a bit :wink: that is to say you need to be in a lower gear and spin when attacking an upslope; combined with an oval chainring upfront, this enables a very relaxed climbing cadence, more like pumping or churning, not linear but more like applying the pedal stroke only when maximum efficency and relaxing inbetween; in my case, this rhythm allows me to saddle climb the most steep slopes I've ever attempted.
The roughloff you mentioned does not exhibit this behaviour because it uses the pawl clutch design which actually makes it less efficient in the lower (climbing) gears.


p.s. reviewing the clip you posted, you may want to clean and repack your bottom bracket and pedals. Get to the "sealed" ball bearings, unseal them and repack them with heavy marine grease: there's a semi-nasty creacking noise I'm picking up in the clip whenever pressure comes thru from the pedal to the crank axle and the bb bearings.