Help fitting a stem raiser

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Dave855
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Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby Dave855 » 2 Jun 2012, 4:29pm

My new sem raiser cam in the post today and I've just had a bas at fitting it (I'm a complete novice). Upon removing the handlebars and stem from my Sardar I was a bit unsure what to do with the spacers/cantilever cable mount (I want to remove it as I'm also fitting v-brakes) and strange thin wrap around piece of metal (what is this??).

My best efforts managed to get the extender on although probably not entirely correctly?? It's certainly not secure enough (I'm not sure if that could be because I havn't tightened the bolt into the star fangled nut tight enough-I'll have to get an extended allen key to nip it up-although from what I can tell the tightening of that particular bolt is more for compression and wouldn't stop the stem raiser sliding round the steerer tube?). Could the looseness be more to do with the mystery 'wrap around piece of metal' (seen in bottom pic between the spacers and the stem raiser)'?

Please excuse my complete clue-less-ness! I would be very grateful of any insight that could be offered. I'm determined to get my head around the workings of my bike before I go off for my first tour in a couple of weeks time. See pics below....
Image Attachments
Extender-finished.jpg
Extender-peices.jpg

freebooter
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby freebooter » 2 Jun 2012, 4:50pm

The steerer on the Sardar is 1" diameter whereas most ahead steerer tubes are 1 1/8" diameter. Hence most stems and your stem raiser are made to fit the wider standard steerer and are too big for the Sardar steerer. The 'wrap around piece of metal' is a shim that allows you to fit 1 1/8" stems to the 1" steerer. You must use it with your new raiser.

bensonboo
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby bensonboo » 2 Jun 2012, 4:53pm

Is the "wrap around bit" a shim? Without knowing, I'd imagine the shim goes over the steerer tube and the raiser over that, then tighten the compression bolt to remove slack and then, as you say, fully tighten the bolts on the raiser to lock it all in place. The shim may need to be cut to fit.

JohnW
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby JohnW » 2 Jun 2012, 5:28pm

Never having experienced anything like this I'm not able to offer advice - which you seem to have anyway - but who was it that sold you a bike that was too small for you for the type of cycling that you do in the first place?

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531colin
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby 531colin » 2 Jun 2012, 6:01pm

freebooter wrote:The steerer on the Sardar is 1" diameter whereas most ahead steerer tubes are 1 1/8" diameter. Hence most stems and your stem raiser are made to fit the wider standard steerer and are too big for the Sardar steerer. The 'wrap around piece of metal' is a shim that allows you to fit 1 1/8" stems to the 1" steerer. You must use it with your new raiser.


spot on.
The only things I have to add are;
1....its a long shim. I guess 2 of your spacers are 1 1/8", and the shim went inside them as well?
2....you want the steerer going as far as possible into the raiser, the more is inserted, the less it can wobble. You also want the shim fully inserted into the raiser. Get these 2 things right, even if it means losing a spacer, or buying a 1" spacer.
3...... the canti. cable hanger is secured with a pinch bolt. When you remove it you will have to re set the pre load on the headset bearings (see Park tools site) and you may need another 1" spacer.

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horizon
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby horizon » 2 Jun 2012, 7:03pm

The only thing I would add (anyone please correct if necessary) is that you get the stem raiser on and sorted - this fixes the head bearings. When all is hunky dory do the stem and bars.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

Dave855
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby Dave855 » 2 Jun 2012, 7:31pm

Thanks for all the advice. I've had another play around and managed to get the raiser more secure by tightening the grip bolts on the side (still not as secure as without the raiser though).

Strangely enough I think it's actually providing too much rise at the moment! But I don't think I could lower it at all without cutting the steering tube (in the pic below the steering tube is pretty much fully inside the raiser as far as it will go) which seems a bit extreme....

As for the 'pre-load' on the headset bearings-is this not achieved by tightening the bolt into the star fangled nut? Or is it something all together more intricate and precise?

I'm considering going back to my original setup without the raiser and putting some long curved end bars on my flat handlebars to raise my riding position......good idea or worth perservering with the raiser and possibly cutting the steering tube?

Malaconotus
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby Malaconotus » 2 Jun 2012, 8:47pm

Dave855 wrote:I'm considering going back to my original setup without the raiser and putting some long curved end bars on my flat handlebars to raise my riding position......good idea or worth perservering with the raiser and possibly cutting the steering tube?


Stem raiser is ugly, and not as strong as the original set-up. You may find it flexes more. Riser bars or a more upright angled stem are preferable.

Angled stems here... http://www.extrauk.co.uk/product/list/S ... MTB_Stems/

Bar height calculator here... http://alex.phred.org/stemchart/Default.aspx

freebooter
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby freebooter » 2 Jun 2012, 8:51pm

Don't cut down the steerer. If the riser is too tall then you should be able to get a steeply angled stem that would give the fit you need or even an adjustable stem.

Re tightening the headset. The riser should be fitted so that there is a small gap (3-5mm) between the top of the steerer and where the inside of the riser narrows. That is, you should have enough spacers below the riser so that if you removed the spacers the riser would drop down a bit. If you don't have that space then when you tighten the pre tension bolt it just squeezes the riser against the top of the steerer instead of compressing the headset.

The same principle applies when fitting a normal ahead stem. You need a small gap between the top of the stem and the top of the steerer.

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CREPELLO
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby CREPELLO » 2 Jun 2012, 8:52pm

That type of steerer extender is limited in the minimal amount of rise you can obtain. It's also quite a clunky design IMO. Far better would be to use a BBB extender/ahead, quill adaptor. This inserts fully into the steerer and allows you to raise the steerer length anything from 5 to 60mm. You will also require the extra spacers necessary to obtain the desired height, in addition to the existing spacers.

I think the finished result is also more pleasing to the eyes - ie, you wouldn't know it was there!

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horizon
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby horizon » 2 Jun 2012, 10:25pm

CREPELLO wrote:That type of steerer extender is limited in the minimal amount of rise you can obtain. It's also quite a clunky design IMO. Far better would be to use a BBB extender/ahead, quill adaptor. This inserts fully into the steerer and allows you to raise the steerer length anything from 5 to 60mm. You will also require the extra spacers necessary to obtain the desired height, in addition to the existing spacers.

I think the finished result is also more pleasing to the eyes - ie, you wouldn't know it was there!


Crepello: I do agree. I've used the quill raiser on a threaded head and it's fine but forgot that it might work on here. I still don't think though that there's much in it in terms of height gained and the extra height is useful for a lighting bar. However just so that the OP isn't driven to the depths of despair, I have to say that the Delta type that he has chosen is robust, straightforward and IMV doesn't flex. It also allows you to keep the same bars and also IMV isn't ugly. A bike shop would have done this job in 5 mins and the OP will be able to as well if he perseveres this time and gets it right. The angled stem BTW is a better option IMV as a back up if he really doesn't get the height he needs (but I am pretty sure he will). However, I can see that there may be an issue with unneeded tube once the raiser is in place but I think the OP was looking for a significant increase in height. I hadn't ever seen the raiser as ugly - it's all part of a threadless head which I thought everyone thought was ugly anyway - I certainly don't notice them as being any worse than the original.

johnW: AFAIK all Sardars have this height of tube - you will have to ask Dawes why. The bike is the right size, the steerer tube is cut too short.

One last point (to the OP) as said above - DO NOT CUT THE STEERER TUBE. You might want it for other things. And stay with this solution for now - it will work - concentrate on setting it up right. A quill raiser and angled stems are good alternatives but this will get you to where you need to be for now and understanding it will help you if you decide to go with one of those. Stay with it - it really isn't too difficult.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

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CREPELLO
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby CREPELLO » 2 Jun 2012, 11:43pm

Horizon - thing is, the OP is saying that the bars now feel a bit too high, which is the short coming of this particular extender design - it won't allow for minimal adjustment above the original steerer height.

So what's the most realistic option? New bars would seem to be introducing yet another factor into the bike fit. A steeper angled stem would sort the fit out, but the OP would need to be certain that it was the right one. No, I still thing the BBB extender allows for the finest adjustment, therefore, best fit.

I often think in many of these cases of getting best fit at the bars is to buy an adjustable stem. Then play around with the angles a bit, which will inform the rider of where they really require the stem to be. Some guess work may still be order, but it will still be a good guess. Then go out and buy the right stem. This is what I did when I first got my old Galaxy. Subsequent stem gave me a perfect fit.

As I said above, the BBB extender allows anything from 5 to 60mm height adjustment, which is pretty useful.

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horizon
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby horizon » 3 Jun 2012, 12:15am

Crepello: I hadn't used a BBB for Ahead and the stem raisers I did use gave me the height I wanted, if not quite enough. I had never had the problem of too much height but actually had that problem on an ordinary quill extender. Ideally the OP should IMV get this one fixed on and then consider his next move. That way he will know how to fix any converter/stem, can get riding and can test out what feels right. I've tried an adjustable stem as well but I still feel that as a quick and robust solution these Delta stems are OK. But I've learnt something as well.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

JohnW
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby JohnW » 3 Jun 2012, 12:29am

horizon wrote:.........johnW: AFAIK all Sardars have this height of tube - you will have to ask Dawes why. The bike is the right size, the steerer tube is cut too short............[/color]


Horizon -

I confess ignorance with respect to this particular bike/frame. This may not therefore be entirely relevant, but three cycling colleagues in the last couple of years have reached retirement riding fairly downmarket steel roadbikes and now being free to partake of more than just commute cycling and the occasional Sunday mornings have sought something lighter, sportier looking qand more, shall we say a-la-mode.

Not having the money (or perhaps the willingness to spend the money) they've been impressed by flashy looking very good value lighter and livlier alu-framed bikes advertised by a large quite well known retailer, and at apparently good prices.

Now, being lifetime bike riders but new to "cycling", if you see what I mean, they've been impressed by flashy low-weight, and they've bought what were basically entry level training/racing bikes - and admittedly very good value for money. But they'd no idea how to buy the correct size. What they wanted was basically the same set-up that they'd been riding for years, and been comfortable with. However, the (very) young "qualified" shop assistants had sold them a "racing" bike suitable for younger chaps who wanted racing positions and racing features.

In each case, the result was a bike that they couldn't get the handlebars high enough on. The top of the head-tube was too low for their size and required riding position. The frames were too small - not in the salesboy's (sorry salesman's) eyes, but for practical purposes.

They'd been sold bum-in-the-air chin-on-the-front-tyre set-ups when what they wanted was more upright and more relaxed. They'd also been sold razor-blade saddles and a complimentary application form to join the Luton Girls' Choir.

We had a fairly local dealer, now retired - a cyclist himself - who was always ready to help anyone, and he sorted them out one way or another. The appearence of the end-result was utterly bizzare and eventually all three finally spent more money on yet another bike.

Is that what has actually happened in the case under discussion?

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horizon
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Re: Help fitting a stem raiser

Postby horizon » 3 Jun 2012, 1:13am

JohnW wrote:
horizon wrote:.........johnW: AFAIK all Sardars have this height of tube - you will have to ask Dawes why. The bike is the right size, the steerer tube is cut too short............[/color]


Is that what has actually happened in the case under discussion?


Not really - what you describe is a real hell on earth! Sardars are well designed bikes and should enable a traditional touring position of saddle in line with or just above the bars. However they do have sloping top tubes and this means that if you fit the bike but are at the top end of the size you really need to raise both saddle and bars. A threadless headset doesn't allow you to do this unless the steerer has been left uncut. This bike was second hand but all the Sardars I have seen have relatively low cut steerers. Someone has posted (malaconotus?) that they are not too bad, which they aren't but I think they could do with just a bit more stem height for some people. But remember, we are talking here about getting the bars level with saddle, a far off prospect for most road bikes. A stem raiser IMV was a quick and straightforward solution. Malaconotus and Crepello have suggested better solutions which the OP could still try, though my view was that he should try this one first (because he has the raiser now) and see how he gets on with various heights.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher