audax bikes; gearing too high

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reohn2
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby reohn2 » 26 Sep 2012, 7:28pm

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote: Note:- don't worry about the pins/rivets coming out as they are snug up against back of the freehub body.


-or better still perhaps just leave them out anyway; they don't do anything useful once the cassette is fitted, and they don't do much that is useful before then if they are liable to drop out in handling.

People keep saying that leaving out the pins won't make any difference on steel f/hubs but I always think if they consolodate the bigger cogs then it can only be a plus :)

BTW if 13-32 were more widely available, then the 'leftovers' might constitute a more useful cassette as well.

cheers

I didn't know there was a 9speed one :?
Edit:- This is the only one I can find,but it's a Sun Race:- http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/a24584 ... =en&cr=GBP
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Brucey
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby Brucey » 26 Sep 2012, 7:54pm

reohn2 wrote:
Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote: Note:- don't worry about the pins/rivets coming out as they are snug up against back of the freehub body.


-or better still perhaps just leave them out anyway; they don't do anything useful once the cassette is fitted, and they don't do much that is useful before then if they are liable to drop out in handling.

People keep saying that leaving out the pins won't make any difference on steel f/hubs but I always think if they consolodate the bigger cogs then it can only be a plus :)


...well if they did do that, maybe, yes. But if the pins/screws w.h.y. can't even touch most of the cogs -which is most certainly the case with many designs- then they can't very well do that. Furthermore should the cassette lockring not be tight enough, the rivets invariably work loose very quickly, often without even being noticably marked on their shanks, in stark contrast to the state of the freehub body under these circumstances. Additionally, I note that SRAM cassettes use a single screw and then plastic pegs moulded in the spacers in two other locations, so it is clear what their design relies upon.

Although I do not agree with everything SB said, I think he got it right on this one; his view was unequivocally that the screws/rivets were there for assembly convenience alone.

reohn2 wrote:
BTW if 13-32 were more widely available, then the 'leftovers' might constitute a more useful cassette as well.

cheers

I didn't know there was a 9speed one :?
Edit:- This is the only one I can find,but it's a Sun Race:- http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/a24584 ... =en&cr=GBP

I guess it would only work acceptably well if there was a single SunRace-to-Shimano shift in the assembled cassette, or you used all SunRace sprockets. Not BTDT yet....

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 26 Sep 2012, 8:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brian73
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby Brian73 » 26 Sep 2012, 8:17pm

My new bike says 'audax' on the frame 50/34 9 speed 12-27. Been up a few 12% hills in Rotherham and Sheffield without too much puffing.

My old steel MTB is 28/38/48 11-32 and will chug up most roads, albeit at 5-6mph.

If the hill is too steep I get off and walk, as do the other CTC riders with me.

There doesn't appear to be any stigma in doing this.

Ribblehead
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby Ribblehead » 26 Sep 2012, 9:29pm

uphillbothways wrote:few men are secure enough in their masculinity to walk into a bike shop and say "I'm old and slow and a bit podgy, please sell me a bike that has nice low gears and won't do my back in".


One of the few advantages of using an MTB on the road: no modification is required to ride up the steepest hills that can be found.

Off topic, but years ago someone I know photographed a 1:2.5 gradient sign while cycle touring in Wales. Does anyone happen to know where this 'wall' of a road is?

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breakwellmz
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby breakwellmz » 26 Sep 2012, 9:48pm

Any of you ridden up this one in Totterdown,Bristol.

Yes,it IS as steep as it looks!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mykg/2732843295/

reohn2
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby reohn2 » 26 Sep 2012, 9:48pm

Brucey wrote:
...well if they did do that, maybe, yes. But if the pins/screws w.h.y. can't even touch most of the cogs -which is most certainly the case with many designs- then they can't very well do that. Furthermore should the cassette lockring not be tight enough, the rivets invariably work loose very quickly, often without even being noticably marked on their shanks, in stark contrast to the state of the freehub body under these circumstances. Additionally, I note that SRAM cassettes use a single screw and then plastic pegs moulded in the spacers in two other locations, so it is clear what their design relies upon.

We'll have to agre to differ on this one.

Although I do not agree with everything SB said, I think he got it right on this one; his view was unequivocally that the screws/rivets were there for assembly convenience alone.

I agree in part but I'm sticking with replacing the pins,anyway it helps with my assembly too :)


I guess it would only work acceptably well if there was a single SunRace-to-Shimano shift in the assembled cassette, or you used all SunRace sprockets. Not BTDT yet....

cheers

Yep you're right,so picking the best out of Shimano 14-25 and an 11-32 works well
BTW I split a 14-25 and an 11-34 for the best tandem ratios for us two weaklings :)
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reohn2
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby reohn2 » 26 Sep 2012, 9:56pm

Brian73 wrote:My new bike says 'audax' on the frame 50/34 9 speed 12-27. Been up a few 12% hills in Rotherham and Sheffield without too much puffing.

@20% it's another story,atleast it is for me,I need 26x30 :)


If the hill is too steep I get off and walk, as do the other CTC riders with me.

If I'm cycling I'm cycling,if I'm walking,I'm walking.I don't like walking when I'm cycling :)

There doesn't appear to be any stigma in doing this.

I agree and I would never attach any stigma to anyone who had to walk up a hill.
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Ayesha
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby Ayesha » 27 Sep 2012, 8:54am

I've ridden The Castleton Classic five times.

First was on a bike with 38 - 23 low and I completed comfortably.
Second and third was on a bike with 42 x 28 low and I completed.
Fourth was on a bike with 30 x 25 low and I completed.
Fifth was on the same bike as No. 4 and I got off and walked on several hills. I had lost fitness. No fault attached to the bike's gearing.

Maybe complaints about the bike's gearing should be redirected toward the rider's legs not being powerful enough :wink:

reohn2
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby reohn2 » 27 Sep 2012, 9:28am

Ayesha wrote:Maybe complaints about the bike's gearing should be redirected toward the rider's legs not being powerful enough :wink:


Isn't that the case for everyone,otherwise we'd all be climbing Alp d'huez on 53x11!!! :? .

The OP asked how to get lower gears and not too high a top gear some have provided that info.
The thing is cadence,which varies from rider to rider,theres no right or wrong cadence only the optimum cadence(OC) that suits yourself,so different riders will rider at different cadence it's nothing to do with power and everything to do with comfort and style of riding,if you don't believe me watch the pro's.
Recently on here I mentioned that a 62.5inch gear is a good cruising gear at 16to18 mph for me someone (MickF ithink) said they couldn't spin that comfortably,that is my OC.Others' OC can be,and I've no doubt do,vary wildy to mine,that's their OC,who am I to argue?
Smart Alec comments don't progress the thread!
BTW I spin out a 48x14@30mph...........rarely
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Brucey
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby Brucey » 27 Sep 2012, 9:47am

If it is any consolation even professional racers don't always get their gearing 'right' (for them even). It seemed to me that in this year's Vuelta, the fact that they had incorporated gradients that were 50% (or more) steeper than normal hadn't quite sunk in; a lot of the riders didn't seem to have fitted gears low enough.

BTW I used to hate walking up hills, but I'm pretty relaxed about it these days. SPD shoes and MTBing helped somewhat, altering both the practicality and the inclination.

cheers
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CJ
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby CJ » 27 Sep 2012, 10:01am

Ayesha wrote:Fifth was on the same bike as No. 4 and I got off and walked on several hills. I had lost fitness. No fault attached to the bike's gearing.

Maybe complaints about the bike's gearing should be redirected toward the rider's legs not being powerful enough :wink:

I acknowledge the winking smiley, but the power of the rider's legs (or in fact the rider's power to weight ratio) is not a factor that's easy to improve, whereas the gearing is - or would be if the market were not skewed in favour of a very fit minority.

And there's no fault attached to walking, if that's what you want to do. However riding does take less energy. So if you DO have low enough gears to ride hills in comfort, you'll be less tired at the end of the day.

Gearing choice depends very much upon the reasons you go riding. If you do it to engage in some kind of road-race fantasy, you'll want chainrings and sprockets that to a superficial glance don't look too different from what your idols use, but that you can just manage to haul around (albeit at a far slower cadence than they would ever countenance) whilst you suffer for your sport on all the steep hills. If on the other hand you cycle because it's such a pleasant way of observing the countryside whilst chatting to friends etc., you'll want a bottom gear that corresponds with the slowest speed at which you can balance whilst maintaining a reasonable cadence. That's the two extemes. Most people's motivations are a mixture that put them somewhere on a spectrum stretching from 100% sport to 100% touring. Me, I'm like 10% sport and 90% touring. Ayesha, I guess, may be visa-versa. People can even have different motivations on different days, but unless you have that low gear, you don't have the option of a more relaxing ride when you want it.
Chris Juden
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BigG
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby BigG » 27 Sep 2012, 10:24am

reohn2 wrote:BTW I spin out a 48x14@30mph...........rarely

Me too! Even in my time trialling days on the A40 to Denham Roundabout I never used anything higher than 51x14. Even TdF riders only rode 53x14 as I don't think 13 tooth sprockets were available then; certainly not for the most used Regina freewheels. Early experience riding fixed wheels forced us to develop a high cadence. It now seems comfortable, although old age has taken at least 20 rpm of my maximum.

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horizon
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby horizon » 27 Sep 2012, 10:40am

Brian73 wrote:If the hill is too steep I get off and walk, as do the other CTC riders with me. There doesn't appear to be any stigma in doing this.


The very fact that it needed to be stated sent shivers down my spine. How low have we sunk?

(but thanks Brian73 for mentioning it.)
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

Ayesha
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby Ayesha » 27 Sep 2012, 12:33pm

Let’s say a cyclist is riding a bike up a 25% gradient at 2 mph.
The wind resistance is negligible, so the power in the cyclist’s legs is predominantly lifting the entire weight of the vehicle upwards against gravity at 0.25 x 2 mph x mass x g.

The cyclist is pushing the pedals at 30 rpm, which is a pedal stroke each second. A 21” gear.

Now compare this against a hiker who is stepping up a 1:4 coast path with a backpack which weighs 30 lb.

What the hiker can do is decrease his stride and increase his step rate. He has effectively lowered his gear ratio. This is called ‘mincing’ and not many hikers like to be seen doing it. They prefer to take reasonable strides equivalent to stair-climbing.

Back to the cyclist. Imagine he has on his bike a gear ratio which allows him to effect a 60 cadence up a 25% hill at 2 mph. This is for all intents and purposes, not feasible with standard over-the-counter gearing, but is what some cyclists wish for. His pedal pedal pressure will be halved and he will be ‘saving his knees’.

In reality, if the cyclist packs his bike with a 21” gear, he is expending the same exertion as the hiker.
I cannot remember any hiking magazines advising walkers, ramblers or hikers that climbing stairs is “bad for the knees”, but you read in any cycling magazine “low cadence is bad for the knees”.

The reason why the cycling press say this is,,, most newbie and inexperienced cyclists have an elliptical knee movement through its travel causing the knee to splay outward on its descent. A vector of forces is in operation and a sideways hinging action results. The knee is a ‘Hinge’ joint which is a back-and-forth hinge, not a sideways hinge.

To successfully climb a hill with low cadence, make a conscious effort to keep the knees moving in a straight line between the hip ball and the centre of the shoe cleat.
When knee control is perfected, climbing hills in higher gears becomes painless and are of less perceived effort.

Now you can ‘mash’ and that 39 x 23 will get you up a 15%.

Brian73
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Re: audax bikes; gearing too high

Postby Brian73 » 27 Sep 2012, 1:04pm

Here's how it should be done down my way.

Monsal Hill Climb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsqi8Nj1y_I