Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
vstrom
Posts: 5
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 1:19am

Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby vstrom » 26 Aug 2012, 1:42am

Hello, fellows!

I need an advice from somebody who might have had the same problem, but before all, as I am new here, I want to say hi to everyone!

I recently got a second hand Heinzmann Classic RN120 electrical motor fitted on a 26" wheel. It came with a controller, but no throttle. I bought a genuine heinzmann throttle on ebay and got everything connected to 2 batteries, 12 volts each (24V in total) and the motor works. But the top speed performed by my motor is 16 km\h without a load and the top speed declared by the manufacturer is 25 km/h. I don't know what may have caused my motor being slow.
Please find attached a website with the motor and with the controller:

http://www.cfnet.net/tm/1505.htm - controller,

http://www.ebike.heinzmann.com/index.php/en/motor/classic# - motor.

Thank you for any help
Nikolas
Last edited by vstrom on 26 Aug 2012, 9:17am, edited 1 time in total.

theenglishman
Posts: 106
Joined: 10 Jun 2012, 5:01pm

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby theenglishman » 26 Aug 2012, 6:28am

My guess is that it's restricted to conform to whatever local legislation it was made for. I suspect it's a Class 3 system

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/disabledpeo ... /dg_179937

I could be wrong though?

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 10798
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Aug 2012, 7:34am

I would suggest the same.

To be sold in the UK it has to met UK or EU regulations, both of which stipulate a maximum speed of 15 mph

vstrom
Posts: 5
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 1:19am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby vstrom » 26 Aug 2012, 9:16am

Hello, gentlemen and thank you!

Yes, I received it from UK, but its current top speed is 16 KM\H, not 15 MPH.

Do you think that it has something to do with the gears inside the motor or it could be done something with the electronics..?

Thank you

recumbyrider
Posts: 7
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 11:43am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby recumbyrider » 26 Aug 2012, 11:56am

Hi

I`m not familiar with the Controller you are using, but looking at the spec sheet from the link provided, it seems possible that the motor is not receiving sufficient amps. If you look on the side of the motor there will be a couple of metal plates with numbers and so forth. One of those numbers will be the ampere rating of the motor - if it is greater than the 20amps your controller is rated at this might explain the problem. One way to test would be to place an a Watts On Meter (such as the Turnigy) between the battery and the motor.

I have used cheap imported controllers from China with some success - item such as this might be suitable, though you`d need to check it`s amp rating: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24v-350W-Speed-Controller-Black-Box-Electric-Bike-Scooter-/170888070387?pt=UK_Toys_Games_Outdoor_Toys_ET&hash=item27c9b904f3#ht_1108wt_952

The other possibility is that you have one of the high torque (and thus lower speed) motors - the info plates on the side of the motor might give some clue to this. If you post a picture of the side of the motor showing the plates I might be able to tell you more.

User avatar
andrew_s
Posts: 5315
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby andrew_s » 27 Aug 2012, 12:56pm

1mile = 1.6km, 16 * 1.6 = 25
Could it be a speed sensor calibration issue, such as controller set to mph but sensor set to kph?

recumbyrider
Posts: 7
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 11:43am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby recumbyrider » 27 Aug 2012, 2:22pm

Hi

A rough and ready conversion - 1 km = 5/8 (five eighth`s) of a mile. Thus 16kph = 10mph.

Anyway, the Heinzmann motor does not have any internal speed sensors or suchlike. The RPM of the motor is simply a result of the voltage and current (amps) that it is receiving and those two things are determined by the motor controller and throttle.

If the motor is receiving insufficient current then it will not reach its full speed (RPM) - this is why I asked about the controller you are using. If it is delivering less current than the motor is rated for (with the throttle wide open) then the motor will not reach it`s full speed.

As I said - check the side of the motor, the information plates will have a number followed by Amps.

What might be misleading you though, is the new Heinzmann website - the thing is Heinzmann used to sell a very wide variety of hub motors, with many different specs, and even now they still do more than one type - to give you an idea have a look here: http://www.ev-solutions.co.uk/Heinzmann_files/Retro-retail-2012.pdf

To give a fuller answer - more info is needed. But once you get it running a Heinzmann motor really does the job - I bought my first one over 10 years ago via the Kinetics Bulletin Board - the instructions were all in German as the guy I bought it from had self-imported, so it took me a fair old while to get it sorted. But it was worth it in the end - having bought and used several more Heinzmann motors/kits since (and having used them with different controllers and different voltages).

byegad
Posts: 3232
Joined: 3 Sep 2007, 9:44am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby byegad » 27 Aug 2012, 5:32pm

I may be wrong but I wonder if the motor isn't a 36volt item>
"I thought of that while riding my bike." -Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail
1951 engine

recumbyrider
Posts: 7
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 11:43am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby recumbyrider » 27 Aug 2012, 6:01pm

It`s entirely possible that it is - but the information plates on the side of the motor will have the voltage figure.

vstrom
Posts: 5
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 1:19am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby vstrom » 28 Aug 2012, 12:59pm

Hello, gentlemen! Thank you everyone for the answers.

On the side of the motor there are absolutely no nameplates. The only thing it says is "Heinzmann". No plate with specifications.

I also thought that the motor might be a higher voltage than the one they say on the website. I even did connect the motor directly, without the controller, to 36V and 48V and it spins much faster. But since the controller is made for 24V, I'm affraid to let 36V (or 48) through the controller.
The motor has lots of torque for starting until about 11km/h and after that it slowly accelerates until 14, 15 km/h and that's all. After 15, 16km/h I need to turn the throttle back, because I go much faster on pedals.

If anybody likes, tonight I may publish pictures of the motor.

Thank you
Nikolay

recumbyrider
Posts: 7
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 11:43am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby recumbyrider » 28 Aug 2012, 5:24pm

Hi -

Well if there are no info plates on the side of the motor then it`s a bit difficult.

A Heinzmann 24v motor will run on 36v - and probably won`t burn out as long as you don`t exceed the Amp rating of the motor.

However I still suspect that your controller is not delivering sufficient amps to the motor at 24v.

If you look at the photo of one of my older Heinzmann motors - you can see the information plates - one giving info on voltage and watts, the other with the Amp (A) ratings - the third picture is of the very first Heinzmann motor I bought - which had high rpm but very low torque (it got burnt out unfortunately due to receiving too many Amps (so speaking from experience you might say).

Image

Image

Image

recumbyrider
Posts: 7
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 11:43am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby recumbyrider » 29 Aug 2012, 9:18am

Hi Nikolay

Still hoping to see a pic of your motor - it might help with solving the problem.

Cheers

vstrom
Posts: 5
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 1:19am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby vstrom » 30 Aug 2012, 1:00am

Hi, recumbyrider!

Here the pictures are!
Image
Image
Image

:)

Thanks!

User avatar
squeaker
Posts: 3761
Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 11:43pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby squeaker » 30 Aug 2012, 10:43am

Ah: the curse of the stick-on label strikes again :roll:
"42"

recumbyrider
Posts: 7
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 11:43am

Re: Heinzmann electrical assistance trouble.

Postby recumbyrider » 30 Aug 2012, 2:12pm

Trouble is they ain`t stick on - they`re metal plates, riveted on.

Nikolay

I have to admit I have never seen a Heinzmann motor without the info plates - so can now see your problem.

Several things spring to mind: one thing you could try to find out more about the motor is to remove it from the hub - you can do this by taking out the screws around the edge (the ones in your 3rd photo), remove the wheel nut and locking nut on the reverse side of the motor - and it`ll come out. Inside you`ll see a planet and sun gear arrangement. Then there is another part that can be removed - the clutch mechanism as they tend to call it. Inside that you`ll have another cog with a smaller cog still on the motor. The larger cog might be metal, or a white composite or a dark (metallic looking) carbon. A metal cog would indicate a higher power (higher amp motor) a composite will indicate an older lower power motor - the carbon cog came in more recently and would indicate that it`s probably a 36v motor.

Have a look here for more info: http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/the_motor.shtml (a page from the days when Kinetics were the Heinzmann specialists.

Nowadays for expert advice it might be worth contacting Andreas at EV-Solutions - http://www.ev-solutions.co.uk/Contact.html as he might just be able to identify your motor without you needing to dismantle it - although it is a fairly easy procedure to take it out and remove the clutch (it must be I managed it after shredding a composite cog :)

Anyway if you do dismantle the motor - and those two procedures are as far as you can go without using specialist tools - then post up some pics, and we`ll see.

One thing though - when you had the motor running on your bike, what was it like pulling away and going up hills - for instance could it pull away without you pedalling?

Cheers (and good luck)