1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

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pargeterw
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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 30 Aug 2012, 6:52pm

gaz wrote:
pargeterw wrote:Re: Wheel sizes - Being a european version, not US, I'm hopefull that the wheels are 700c, I'll measure them (and everything else) when I get back to the correct part of the country (next week).

Don't bother to measure them, simply look on the tyre for a sizing (there will probably be lots of sets of numbers). Your linked catalogue suggests they'll be 27" in which case one of the sets will read XX-630 or 630-XX. If they're 700C it'll be XX-622 or 622-XX. If I were a betting man I'd say the XX will be 32.


The linked catalogue is from the US, but this was bought in the UK... Fingers crossed!

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby Brucey » 30 Aug 2012, 6:58pm

pargeterw wrote:

Re: Brake Levers - I was planning on using a "Travel Agent" (linked in the blog) to solve this?


-people do use these successfully; I worry about cable fatigue round the pullies, and additional friction losses. You'll have to see how you get on I guess.

Re: Tapping - I'm not planning on changing the pedals, but, if I do, will this cause an appreciable drop in strength?

Will


you will only be removing a few thou'; 9/16" is 0.285mm larger diameter than 14mm. This is stuff-all. It is not as if stronglight used a different blank for each thread size or anything like that.

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby Brucey » 31 Aug 2012, 5:13pm

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby Brucey » 31 Aug 2012, 5:20pm

http://www.peugeottandem.com/Pages/HubBrake.aspx

is a useful site too. The Peugeot tandems shared a lot of components with the Gitane, Motobecane and Globetrotter ones.

[edit; the peugeot tandem website owner has commented to me thus re. the Atom hub axle/bearing choices;
You can't get the cones for the thicker axles either, and the 12mm axles bend too, so they are a dead end solution really. I find the hubs hold up just fine with a modern hardened steel 10mm axle, with a Shimano thread so it is easy to get cones spacers track nuts etc. These hubs were fitted to Mobylette mopeds which are probably the best source for spares.
-which may be helpful. I have used shimano cones in maillard rear hubs without trouble myself, but only in solo use to date, BTW.]

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby Brucey » 4 Sep 2012, 9:13pm

useful page of tandem links (now somewhat out of date sadly)

http://tandem-fahren.de/Mitglieder/Christoph_Timm/components.html

link to Shimano FH-HF08 techdoc

http://www.paul-lange.de/fileadmin/paullange/downloads/ARCHIV/FH/FH-HF08.PDF

I note that the freehub body is unique to this hub; anyone know how the pawls are arranged?

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pargeterw
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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 5 Sep 2012, 11:29pm

Brucey: You are amazing.

After all that research though, it still seems that, in a perhaps vain effort to aid in future-proofing the machine, I should be attempting to go towards the cassette that I mistakenly said I wanted something like in the first place!

The current options are this: http://www.sturmey-archer.com/products/hubs/cid/1/id/54 or, re-space the OLD to take the Shimano Hub mentioned in my blog originally... Which of these ends up happening will, ultimately (as with everything) fall to the money.

On that note, I'm planning on substituting in a British eccentric at the front, solving the BB thread problem in perpetuity, at least for half of the bike!

Re- Pedal tapping
I may well do this - I think putting SPD' for the stoker at least, would be a very good idea!

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby AndyA » 6 Sep 2012, 2:29am

I've got a SA X-RDC on our tandem. Only problem so far is that there was nothing for the locknuts to lock against - one nut rather than two nuts to lock against one another. These would slacken and would cause a little play in the hub. I replaced the single nuts with two nuts I could lock against each other.
It's also a bit of a faff getting the rear wheel off, but I suppose that's the nature of drum brakes.
The bearings are still smooth and the axle seems to be straight after 3500 miles, 1000 of which were towing a trailer with camping gear. I'm quite happy with it :)

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 6 Sep 2012, 11:22pm

AndyA wrote:I've got a SA X-RDC on our tandem...


Thanks for this! Very useful point on the locknuts. Getting the rear wheel off is always a bit of a faff unless you have a quick release skewer anyway, so I'm not going to worry about this. I doubt a separate hub brake would be much easier anyway?

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 8 Sep 2012, 3:12pm

gaz wrote:
pargeterw wrote:Re: Wheel sizes - Being a european version, not US, I'm hopefull that the wheels are 700c, I'll measure them (and everything else) when I get back to the correct part of the country (next week).

Don't bother to measure them, simply look on the tyre for a sizing (there will probably be lots of sets of numbers). Your linked catalogue suggests they'll be 27" in which case one of the sets will read XX-630 or 630-XX. If they're 700C it'll be XX-622 or 622-XX. If I were a betting man I'd say the XX will be 32.


Turns out the current rims are 27x1 1/4 (as defined on the tyres)... Just off to investigate adjustability now!

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 8 Sep 2012, 3:30pm

pargeterw wrote:Just off to investigate adjustability now!

I don't think this will be a problem - Also, just thought, that since the smaller rims put the brake blocks closer to the pivot, then that should increase the power of the cantilevers?!

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Chris Jeggo
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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby Chris Jeggo » 8 Sep 2012, 4:08pm

I spent some time reading your blog and drafting a comment, and then came back to this Forum and realised that my reply had been overtaken by respondents here, Brucey prominent among them, but I am running out of time so here are my comments anyway, only very slightly edited.

Introduction

I bought one of these new from a Guildford cycle shop in 1977 and ran it for a year, at the end of which my wife and I decided that we liked tandeming but wanted a better tandem. The Gitane was a relatively cheap, mass-produced machine and we concluded that replacing it was better than upgrading it.

Handlebar and stem

Sheldon Brown's remarks about Ava stems and handlebars do not apply since your stem is Pivo and handlebar appears to be steel. It is up to you to check the reputation of Pivo.

Transmission

I had not seen John Allen's article before, but it appears to be a correct, clearly written and comprehensive account. His discussion of the pros and cons of front crossover drive is interesting and makes some good points that I had not thought of.

My replacement tandem consisted of a Mercian frame and a collection of parts which I chose, bought and fitted myself. I used what John Allen calls "single-side" drive (which was generally called "direct drive" in the UK at that time) for the reasons he gives: two solo cranksets can be used, and the loads on the rear bottom bracket (solo-sized) are less than for crossover drive. In the 1930's (golden age of cycling?) when far more tandems were produced than in the 1970's, tandem bottom brackets were over-size (or at least the rear ones) to withstand the greater loads. As life turned out, that tandem never did a big mileage, but I never had cause to regret my choice of direct drive.

The Gitane we bought had steel, cottered cranks and 10-speed direct drive, and there was no option for anything else, so I strongly suspect your transmission is a subsequent upgrade. The bike was basically a French import (although it did have 27 x 1-1/4" rims and tyres) and the freewheel thread on the rear hub was certainly French, so I would expect the bottom bracket threads to be French too. That will influence your choice of course of action. Any serious attempt to 'future-proof' the tandem will be very expensive; whether that's worth while depends on your intended use of it. Thus I would recommend a careful assessment of what you have and carrying out only essential replacements initially. The creaking might not be from the bottom brackets, so if they are not much worn a clean and re-grease may be all that is required. I have experienced creaking from slight movement between chainrings, chainring bolts and spiders. Chainsets (including bottom brackets) are the most highly stressed components of any bike and the parts must fit well and be done up really tight, using appropriate thread-locking compounds if necessary. (If you want to find out recommended torques I suggest 'Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance' and technical documents which can be found on the Shimano website.) If your present crossover drive is in an acceptable condition I would stick with it and only consider switching to direct drive if you find you get through rear bottom brackets at an unacceptable rate.

Wheels and rim brakes

Yes, definitely replace the steel rims with good alloy ones. Modern rims are much stronger than 1970's ones, and rim braking will be much improved. I fitted Mafac cantilever brakes to my Mercian and found them satisfactory. Maybe you need to replace old brake blocks; see elsewhere on this Forum for recommendations.

Hub brake

The hub brake was quite good when new. However, the Gitane's freewheel block started making noises I did not like, and in the process of investigating this I put a lot of oil into it. Some of it found its way into the brake, which was never the same again, despite soaking and washing the shoes in paraffin, slow baking in an oven at a bit over 100 deg C to drive off volatile matter, and removing a thin layer from the linings with a file. Had I kept the bike I would have replaced or relined the shoes.

Gears and cables, etc.

It sounds as if you have a friction problem with the rear derailleur. Clean (WD40?) and lubricate the pivots of the mechanism. You probably need to replace all control cables, both inner wires and outer casings, and on brakes as well as gears. Your levers do not contain return springs; indeed, where levers do have return springs, they are not for returning the mechanism being controlled (since that would entail pushing the inner wire, which can only be expected to pull), but for lightening the load on the return spring(s) in the mechanism.

That's about all I can think of just now, and I hope it helps.

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 8 Sep 2012, 8:17pm

Chris Jeggo wrote:I spent some time reading your blog...


Thank you for this, it is much appreciated, and, while some of your comments have been brought up already, an extra voice gives weight to a certain opinion (and, may I say yours seems weightier than many...)

You'll be glad to know, of course, that I've just put in another post on the blog, so you can sped even longer reading it, should you so wish!

Cue my next post, to the world...

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pargeterw
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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 8 Sep 2012, 8:19pm

QUICK, EVERYBODY, BACK TO THE BLOG! (there's another post, which you may or may not be interested in...?)

http://gitaingaves.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby Brucey » 8 Sep 2012, 10:59pm

loose balls in the headset = good idea. I think the headset can be re-used OK.

The rear stays will take a set out OK, it'll just be harder work than normal to get it to go.

The headset tab washer is pretty normal in that it doesn't do what it is intended to do. You wil have to use two spanners to set the headset correctly.

The damage on the inside of the dropout is fairly normal. When setting the new kit up, make sure that there isn't a gap for the chain to fall down into between the last cog and the frame, but also that the last cog isn't so close that the chain will foul on the frame (as it may have been doing).

You might want to think about getting a gear hanger welded on to the frame; this makes a neater job on the whole, although the bolt-on type does have the advantage that it is easily replaced.

There are various rust treatments you can use , including some waxy ones that are designed to protect the insides of steel frames. Not a bad idea.

Note that many French frames take 22.0mm quill stems. Making a 7/8" (22.2mm) standard one fit is not a fast job if the parts are well made and of the correct size to start with.

BTW re the BB threads; it is possible to convert the rear BB to BSC threads via various routes. Several of them involve welding of the rear BB shell and then getting it remachined with new threads. I still quite like the diea of using a cartridge system, but with french threaded end cups which you retain when you buy a new BB unit. Many cartridge units use a (say) 30mm dia centre unit which can be fitted to very many different cups with a 30.0mm bore.

It is all in bits.... will it ever go back together again....? :shock:

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Re: 1970's French Tandem Restoration Project Advice?!

Postby pargeterw » 8 Sep 2012, 11:44pm

Brucey wrote:loose balls in the headset = good idea. I think the headset can be re-used OK.

Lovely. : )

Brucey wrote:You wil have to use two spanners to set the headset correctly.

But there's only one set of spanner flats? http://i.minus.com/ibqvCgoOOtpErd.JPG

Brucey wrote:...chain will foul on the frame (as it may have been doing).

Since the damage is right around the front, I think it was the cogs, not the chain in the past. Won't stretching out the rear stays have an effect on the space available? If I do end up with THIS cassette, hopefully the 11 tooth sprocket will be tiny enough to keep out of the way? (the current one is 13-32 teeth).

Brucey wrote:You might want to think about getting a gear hanger welded on to the frame

I'll put this on the 'desirable but not essential' section of the wanted list...

Brucey wrote:There are various rust treatments you can use

To be honest, I'm impressed that it's in as good a condition as it is!

Brucey wrote:Note that many French frames take 22.0mm quill stems...

If SHELDON is to be believed, then it ought to be the Locknut that causes problems. I can confirm that the Locknut is larger than the I.D. of the steerer, so I'm hopeful, if not, emery cloth it is!

Brucey wrote:it is possible to convert the rear BB to BSC threads via various routes...

What I had in mind (ideal world) was to simply swap the eccentric at the front, and to fill in the rear thread with braze, and re-tap. As I say, ideal world!

Brucey wrote:It is all in bits.... will it ever go back together again....? :shock:

This is something that worried me somewhat too... Everything is in neat piles, cables are labeled, and there's a tin for all the screws and nuts etc, but, I just know that there'll be at least one thing left over when I attempt to re-assemble it! 'tis life I suppose? - let's hope it's not something crucial!