Audax/light touring groupset

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jrclimber
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Audax/light touring groupset

Postby jrclimber » 22 Nov 2012, 9:25pm

Having toured this year in Corsica on an ancient Dawes Vogue and ridden Etape Pennines on a not much younger Peugeot 3000 I feel ready to try and build up a new bike to do both types of riding. Am reasonably happy can get the right steel frame, build the wheels and go for 28mm tyres. Hoping to mix and match some new and second hand parts for the groupset but getting very confused with all that is available from Shimano, SRAM and Campag. Just looking at Shimano's compatability chart for example gives me a headache. These are my criteria -
Gear range approx 28-115, with triple up front.
STI levers - I like a bar bag when touring so under bar tape gear cables desirable - am I right in thinking only recent versions of e.g. 105/ultegra have this, but read some downsides e.g. that on ultegra 6607 can only downshift 2 gears compared to 3 on 6606? Never ridden Campag ergos but wonder if should be considering them.
Dual pivot brakes should, I think, be OK but what drop do I need to get mudguards under and do I need to worry about lever/brake compatability?
If I get, say a 12-30 cassette, how do I know that the rear derailleur will be compatable?

I apologise if some of these questions seem basic to the experts out there but I am keen to learn!

JR

PS I am 6ft 5" and 16stone so not really built for out and out speed on 2 wheels, though I guess that's not particularly relevant to my groupset dilemmas!

Brucey
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Brucey » 22 Nov 2012, 10:06pm

jrclimber wrote: ...PS I am 6ft 5" and 16stone so not really built for out and out speed on 2 wheels, though I guess that's not particularly relevant to my groupset dilemmas!


oh but it is....very much so. I would not for a second recommend 16stone + even light luggage on 130mm OLN rear hubs that are dished for 8/9/10 speed.

This greatly simplifies your choice of rear hub; you would be well advised to have a 135mm rear hub. No campag rear hub then....[edit; unless you modify an aftermarket one...]

Campag ergos will work with shimano mechs; see CJ's 'beat the system' article. Also consider levers other than stis/ergos for gear control.

Re rear mech capacity; this is easy- the manufacturers tell you this. Campag, Shimano and SRAM all have loads of data on their websites.

The other thing you need to say is how much you are wanting to spend; for a bike build the priorities are maybe best thus; 1. frame 2. wheels 3. transmission, 4 other stuff. Its not that the 'other stuff' is not important, its just that it is generally least expensive and difficult to change later on.

A reliable setup is to have a road triple, shimano mechs, 135mm rear cassette hub, campag ergos or bar ends, 8 or 9 speed,
a 30T chainring and a 32T sprocket will see you up anything more or less, and top gear can be as big as you like; it is difficult to buy a cassette without an 11 or 12T and road triples often come with 50T+ big rings.

[edit; if you want to run campag mechs with a 135 hub you can sometimes modify a rear hub to 135mm (tricky) or respace a cassette to campag spacing (easy enough with some aftermarket cassettes) or simply alter the cable mount point on the rear mech slightly; this will allow the system to work with a shimano spaced cassette.]

hth

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 22 Nov 2012, 10:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
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531colin
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby 531colin » 22 Nov 2012, 10:10pm

Will you ever want to go bigger than 28mm tyres? You can get 28mm tyres, mudguards, and a sensible clearance with 57mm drop brakes, but the frame and forks need to be constructed to use the full drop, ie. the brake pads to be at the bottom of the slot.
I have managed to avoid STIs, so I won't comment on them.
Personally I would always go for a square taper chainset, like Stronglight Impact.
Modern Shimano road R. mechs will take 30T sprocket, but I can't read the data sheets on my screen! http://techdocs.shimano.com/techdocs/blevel.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302051113&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181679&bmUID=jIcEXU.
Totally agree with Brucey on the wheel dish.....Campag is worse than Shimano road for dish.
Last edited by 531colin on 22 Nov 2012, 10:45pm, edited 1 time in total.

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foxyrider
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby foxyrider » 22 Nov 2012, 10:31pm

Durability wise avoid anything Shimano under Tiagra or er over Tiagra! having said that Tiagra should meet your needs ok, don't worry about the fly cables, you can push them out of the way to fit your bar bag. 105/ultegra is all very well and pretty but its race kit that needs mollycoddling to keep it running well so bear that in mind. My Tiagra setup has taken more than a few bashes over 6 years of commuting/training/sportive/touring (anything up to 500 miles a week) but is now on its last legs.

Personally i prefer Campag - hit their website for mech compatability (They suggest you need a long arm mech to run a 12/30 cassette - i was looking today) - The new wide range chainsets offer a realistic alternative to a triple for your 'light' use. Crucially you can mix and match components across the range - Xenon 10 will run with Centaur 10 and despite their warnings to the contrary i've found the kit more than robust enough for my tourer and the abuse my old school commuter gets too. You can also do some silly gear changes, two swings should get you across a ten speed cassette! (so much so that my new touring wheels have Campag Record 2012 hubs replacing a pair with mid range Centaur hubs which needed a fivers worth of bearings and seals after seven years of laden touring abuse!)

Good DP brakes, again i've found Campag to be better than Shimano or Tektro, should stop you nicely if they are set properly - i'm more than happy to have them on my laden tourer. I find the Italian units to be less bothered by dirt and abuse and they feel more solid. I can never get my Shimano units to stay set up for more than a few hundred miles at a time. Required drop will be partly dependent on your frame/fork set up, my mudguard ready carbon forks need a long reach, similar forks supplied on my old Giant SCR used mid reach. Do also bear in mind that some tyres are taller than others, Schwalbe Marathon 25's pretty much rub my guards whilst 28 Bontrager racelites slot in with space to spare!

Hope this helps - oh yeah treat yourself to some carbon forks, your hands will appreciate it, they are just as tough, maybe tougher than steel but far more comfortable and lighter!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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foxyrider
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby foxyrider » 22 Nov 2012, 10:48pm

Brucey wrote: I would not for a second recommend 16stone + even light luggage on 130mm OLN rear hubs that are dished for 8/9/10 speed.

This greatly simplifies your choice of rear hub; you would be well advised to have a 135mm rear hub. No campag rear hub then....[edit; unless you modify an aftermarket one...]



What a load of bull! I suppose if you've used old school 130 hubs and broken them it might colour your opinion but you don't even seem to have a valid reason for your statement. Just why would 'you be well advised to have a 135mm rear hub'? The wheel will after all be dished exactly the same.

And to be clear the hubs are not dished for anything, you dish the wheel unless you do an Orbit and build offset and dish the frame. New Campag hubs are actually 9/10/11 compatible, the old 8s used a different cassette body and the triple bearing set up makes the axles almost unbreakable whilst the oversize shells add a degree of stiffness not seen on some atb product.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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meic
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby meic » 22 Nov 2012, 10:56pm

The wheel will after all be dished exactly the same.


This may be a fundamental problem in your whole argument. As on all the Shimano hubs I have seen the 135mm axle wheels have less dish than the 130mm axle wheels with the same gear capability in the free hub.

I do have some lightly dished very strong 130mm OLN wheels but they are the old 6speed cassettes.
The same hubs set to 135mm are very slightly dished and very robust.
Yma o Hyd

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Tigerbiten
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Tigerbiten » 22 Nov 2012, 11:15pm

To get the gear range you want, play around with Sheldon Brown's gear calculator:- http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/ and see what works.
Something like 48-36-26 in front and 11-26 at the back, which gives you a range of 116.82-26.8".
The 48-36-26 is a standard MTB chainset and the 11-26 cassette is a standard-ish road size, so both should be fairly easy to find.

Brucey
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Brucey » 22 Nov 2012, 11:24pm

foxyrider wrote: What a load of bull! Just why would 'you be well advised to have a 135mm rear hub'? The wheel will after all be dished exactly the same.


No, and No.

foxyrider wrote: And to be clear the hubs are not dished for anything, you dish the wheel unless you do an Orbit and build offset and dish the frame.


Note; if you offset the rear end of an already built frame, the wheel goes out of track. Otherwise most folk have a wheel central in a symmetric frame. 130mm dish is worse than 135mm dish, and Campag 130mm dish (8/9/10 etc) is usually worse than Shimano 130mm dish (8/9/10 etc). Ask any competent wheelbuilder; maybe do this before saying things like 'what a load of bull'.

BTW your comments re carbon forks are somewhat misleading; from them you would be forgiven for supposing that they are all the same and that none of them fail catastrophically with no warning.
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howfar
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby howfar » 23 Nov 2012, 8:22am

I'm the same height and weight as jrclimber - 6'5" and just under 16 stone and when I got my last bike the frame was the main concern - I went for the Bob Jackson Audax End to End with 130mm OLN at the rear. The frame was 25.5".

The wheels - I used my old Raleigh Randonneur wheels- Mavic MA3 CD with a 7 speed freehub and was able to get very cheap 7 speed STI's off the web. I run 28mm Marathon tyres and an 11-28 tooth 7 speed cassette.

The wheels are fine - over 20 years old having had a few spokes replaced and 2mm washers added either side to bring it to 130 OLD (In retrospect I could have added 4mm just to the non drive side to get a better dish but using pitlocks the clamp strength plus very little axle protrusion might have been unwise).

I've had no problems with wheel strength and have some rims waiting to replace the MA3's when they finally get too thin (seem to last forever!)

It's my bike of choice for road rides now and accepts 57mm drop brakes - Tiagra ones -and Tortec mudguards.

As for gears - I use a braze on Sora front derailler and had Shimano Alivio 28-28-48 MTB chainset and Shimano UN54 bottom bracket and an Alivio MTB rear mech. I changed the chainset to a Shimano Sora 30-39-50 hollowtech triple with Tiagra bearings and everything works a treat (longevity however is to be seen). Eventually I'll get 9 speed shifters and rear block (11-32) and might lower the small chainring from 30 teeth to 28 to get a lower gear.

Get the right frame and good quality 36 spoke wheels for as much as you can afford - they will bear your weight.

Components - you can mix and match MTB and Road - I just used what I had left over or could get cheap off the web and updated when funds allowed.

The bike weighs about 12.5 kilos and I carrier panniers when commuting (about another 10 kilos max) and suits me for most rides.

I wish the poster the best in choosing a bike and gear - I went bespoke due to my height and am very pleased I did so.

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531colin
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby 531colin » 23 Nov 2012, 8:27am

Wheel dish.....The front wheel, frame, and back wheel must line up. However, there are all those sprockets on one side of the rear wheel, so the hub is pushed to one side while the rim remains central....look at the wheel, it vaguely resembles a "dish".
This is a problem because to "dish" the wheel, the spoke tension is very much greater on the drive side. http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70387
The degree of offset ("dish") varies with the width of the cassette, the spoke flange placement, and the dropout width.
135mmOLN (over locknut) wheels with mountain bike hubs are pretty dished, but there are several riders over 20 stone happily riding my wheels with 135mm hubs and sensible rims...ie deep rims as wide as I can persuade them to accept.
Drop down to 130mmOLN, and with a Shimano hub both spoke flanges move 2.5mm to the left. ....so if you measure spoke flange to centreline, there is an extra 5mm difference left to right. Thats OK for light riders.
Campag 130mm OLN is worse again. Its a while since I put the hubs side by side, but I think its because the Campag. cassette is wider.(spoke flanges move further to the left) Ambrosio hubs are available in Campag or Shimano pattern, but the dish is always Campag.
I had Bob Jacksons build me a frame around a 126mm OLN 7 speed dishless rear wheel...looks a bit odd, rides perfectly.
After I showed that bike to Simon Gershon, Orbit started doing bikes with an offset back end...Simon (or somebody at Orbit) realised that if you offset the dropouts just 4mm to the right, both spoke flanges move 4mm to the right, and you lop 8mm off the left/right difference. You get a really durable wheel, and the frame looks "normal".
There are lightweight 130mmOLN wheelsets with twice as many driveside spokes, this also works.
As in the last post, if you go down to 7 speed, you will move the spoke flanges about 5mm to the right, and end up with a very durable wheel. (but the spokes should outlast a couple of rims)

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CREPELLO
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby CREPELLO » 23 Nov 2012, 8:38am

To be clear about the brakes you'll need for running 28mm tyres with mudguards - dual pivot deep drop (57mm) are the things to look for. Shimano R450/650 are well reguarded. I've never heard of Campag DP brakes being fitted for 'gaurds and 28mm tyres. I wouldn't risk it, even if there is the occasional tyre that might fit.

There's a fair number of frames that will take the above set up - just ensure that they are spec'd as such. Only when you require the above to also accomodate 32mm tyres does the frame design become critical in terms of where the brake bridges are placed and the length of stays. Such frames are more rare - the Mercian King Of Mercia comes to mind.

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meic
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby meic » 23 Nov 2012, 8:46am

howfar wrote:I'm the same height and weight as jrclimber - 6'5" and just under 16 stone and when I got my last bike the frame was the main concern - I went for the Bob Jackson Audax End to End with 130mm OLN at the rear. The frame was 25.5".

The wheels - I used my old Raleigh Randonneur wheels- Mavic MA3 CD with a 7 speed freehub and was able to get very cheap 7 speed STI's off the web. I run 28mm Marathon tyres and an 11-28 tooth 7 speed cassette.

The wheels are fine - over 20 years old having had a few spokes replaced and 2mm washers added either side to bring it to 130 OLD (In retrospect I could have added 4mm just to the non drive side to get a better dish but using pitlocks the clamp strength plus very little axle protrusion might have been unwise).

I've had no problems with wheel strength and have some rims waiting to replace the MA3's when they finally get too thin (seem to last forever!)

It's my bike of choice for road rides now and accepts 57mm drop brakes - Tiagra ones -and Tortec mudguards.

As for gears - I use a braze on Sora front derailler and had Shimano Alivio 28-28-48 MTB chainset and Shimano UN54 bottom bracket and an Alivio MTB rear mech. I changed the chainset to a Shimano Sora 30-39-50 hollowtech triple with Tiagra bearings and everything works a treat (longevity however is to be seen). Eventually I'll get 9 speed shifters and rear block (11-32) and might lower the small chainring from 30 teeth to 28 to get a lower gear.

Get the right frame and good quality 36 spoke wheels for as much as you can afford - they will bear your weight.

Components - you can mix and match MTB and Road - I just used what I had left over or could get cheap off the web and updated when funds allowed.

The bike weighs about 12.5 kilos and I carrier panniers when commuting (about another 10 kilos max) and suits me for most rides.

I wish the poster the best in choosing a bike and gear - I went bespoke due to my height and am very pleased I did so.


As I said earlier, I have the old 130 OLN 6/7speed hubs on a wheel like you have and it is pretty tough, I also have some of the newer 130 OLN 8/9/10 speed hub wheels with the MA3 (and its replacement) rims and these are not quite as tough and 10,000 miles with only a bit of lightweight touring thrown in will see the spokes starting to fail at the elbows on the non-drive side.
The problem is in the dishing (you could try and blame the wheel builder but he built the other wheels too :wink: ). I am a mere 13 stone.


Back to the OP, on my new bike I have the rear dropouts set to 132.5mm so I can fit touring wheels while touring (with heavy rims and big fat tyres) and road wheels for Audax and faster rides.
Yma o Hyd

Brucey
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2012, 8:53am

howfar wrote:I'm the same height and weight as jrclimber - 6'5" and just under 16 stone and when I got my last bike the frame was the main concern - I went for the Bob Jackson Audax End to End with 130mm OLN at the rear. The frame was 25.5".

The wheels - I used my old Raleigh Randonneur wheels- Mavic MA3 CD with a 7 speed freehub and was able to get very cheap 7 speed STI's off the web. I run 28mm Marathon tyres and an 11-28 tooth 7 speed cassette.

The wheels are fine - over 20 years old having had a few spokes replaced and 2mm washers added either side to bring it to 130 OLD (In retrospect I could have added 4mm just to the non drive side to get a better dish but using pitlocks the clamp strength plus very little axle protrusion might have been unwise).

I've had no problems with wheel strength and have some rims waiting to replace the MA3's when they finally get too thin (seem to last forever!)

I wish the poster the best in choosing a bike and gear - I went bespoke due to my height and am very pleased I did so.


Shimano 126mm 7s wheels can be slightly less dished than 8s 130mm and therefore stronger, but it does vary with hub model; it certainly won't be any worse.

Since a shimano 7s axle can be 'shuffled' by moving the cones and locknuts, respacing and redishing to improve rear wheel strength need not have been accompanied by reduced axle protrusion vs the symmetric respacing.

You may be interested to know that you can usually fit '8 from 9' sprockets onto a 7s freehub body.

cheers
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BigG
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby BigG » 23 Nov 2012, 9:22am

I am only slightly shorter and slightly lighter so have similar issues to deal with. My main advice is to go for maximum flexibility at this stage as more experience may change your opinions on what you need. My "optimum" choice changes every few years! The Shimano technology gives you the greatest choice of components (not necessarily from Shimano). Your gear range suggests an mtb type set up with the advantage of 135 mm rear axle. I have found the old Deore XT or LX 7 speed models ideal (now with 8 sprockets from a 9 speed cassette) but you may want to go for the current 8/9/10 speed version. The wheel dish is greater but it seems to be strong enough. You will need a large frame - 24' or even 25" - with the corresponding fairly high bars. I think that STI units will allow the use of a bar bag in this situation. I use 44 cm bars with Kelly take-offs on a 24" frame and a Klick-fix bar bag without problems. The cables from the Kelly take-offs are in a very similar position to STIs and dip quickly enough with wide bars and a long head tube to avoid the bag. For brakes, if you can get cantilever mounts, then do so. This allows a frame with clearance for 32 or even 35 mm tyres that you may one day want to use. ERTO 16-622 or 17-622 rims will allow every tyre size from 25 mm to 35 mm. Early model cantilevers - or Tektro 520/720 models - will work well with STI levers. Finally, stick with square taper chainsets. They are both strong and durable and the 110/74 mm bcd models give every ring size you will ever need.
Happy cycling!

tatanab
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby tatanab » 23 Nov 2012, 9:25am

CREPELLO wrote:To be clear about the brakes you'll need for running 28mm tyres with mudguards - dual pivot deep drop (57mm) are the things to look for. Shimano R450/650 are well reguarded. I've never heard of Campag DP brakes being fitted for 'gaurds and 28mm tyres. I wouldn't risk it, even if there is the occasional tyre that might fit.

I have used 28 with Campag DP brakes, but you are right that only certain tyres will work. I my case Continental 4 Seasons which are much slimmer and lower profile than an equivalnet 25 in Michelin. I also discovered that Campag had a blip in 2006 and made Centaur brakes with a 52 drop. I have these on one machine and it reminds me that in the late 90s we were told that mudguards work ok with Shimano DP but not so well with Campag DP because the shape of the arms is different. This came from riding with people using 49 drop brakes with 23mm tyres and mudguards. It is certainly true that applying the front brake on my Campag 52 drop brakes presses the mudguard to the left which does not happen on my Shimano 57 drop equipped machine. Both have the brake blocks right at the bottom of the slot.

I tend to tour and cycle camp on 25 section tyres, but my touring is generally western Europe so I am not exposed to days of rock strewn tracks although I do put in some farm track type off road. So my choice of brakes and tyre will not suit allcomers. Incidentally, as an old git there was no such thing as a groupset and consequently I mix and match Campag with Shimano to suit what I want to do.