Audax/light touring groupset

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cycleruk
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby cycleruk » 23 Nov 2012, 9:41am

jrclimber wrote:Gear range approx 28-115, with triple up front.
STI levers - am I right in thinking only recent versions of e.g. 105/ultegra have this, but read some downsides e.g. that on ultegra 6607 can only downshift 2 gears compared to 3 on 6606?
Never ridden Campag ergos but wonder if should be considering them.
Dual pivot brakes should, I think, be OK but what drop do I need to get mudguards under and do I need to worry about lever/brake compatability?
If I get, say a 12-30 cassette, how do I know that the rear derailleur will be compatable?


By "downshift" I assume that means moving from smaller to larger cogs (lower gearing)?
The 10 speed 105/Ultegra has 3 clicks (3 gears) moving to the larger cogs and 1 click/gear moving to the smaller sprockets.
With 10 speed you will probaly have to do 2 shifts to make any real difference to the gearing as the sprocket gear spacing is so close together.
( the same though goes for Campag' such as my Centaur groupset)
The difference between the 105 & Ultegra triple chainset, at the moment , is the Ultegra has 94mm BCD for the small ring, whereas the 105 is 74mm.
The Ultegra is limited to a 30T minimum size for the small granny ring but the 105 will go down to 24T if required.
I have both Shimano & Campag' changers of which I prefer the Campag. There is no difference in operation as both perform admirably.
A bike with 58mm dual pivot brakes will allow larger tyres and mudguards than 49mm brakes.
(49mm brakes at full stretch will allow 25mm tyres with mudguards - just!)
I have both Campag' and Shimano brakes and both are good.
In Shimano I generally aim for 105 as it gives, to my mind, the best bang for bucks. Robust and fairly light. Obviously the newer 105 etc is 10 speed so that will be more expensive to buy and run. :roll:
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stewartpratt
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby stewartpratt » 23 Nov 2012, 10:20am

(Also 6'5", but only 14 stone.)

Re the previous comment about Tiagra, my personal experience differs: I find 105 is significantly more durable (notably, I find Tiagra mechs go sloppy quicker). Caveat for the shifters: I have once sheared the middle ratchet from a front triple 5600 shifter when using it on a double and forgetting which ring I was in. FWIW, I find my 10sp 105 (5600) kit shifts better than my 9sp 105 (5500) kit.

Brakes, go for long reach calipers, they'll give you more options. I have short reach calipers and use P35 mudguards with 25mm GP4000S tyres and they're ok; 28mm would be marginal at best.

135mm hubs are certainly worth going for if you can, but if you want caliper brakes as well and are buying off-the-peg then this restricts your options. Personally I dislike the combination of cantis and drop levers sufficiently to consider a 130mm rear end a price worth paying for calipers, but I'm not intending to do loaded touring on the bike in question, though I do use a bar bag and seatpost-mounted pack hanging over the rear wheel for long/two-day rides. YMMV. If you ride light you should get away with a well-built 36-spoke 130mm rear.

Definitely worth going for bar-routed STI cables if you want to use a decent sized bar bag and you can afford the shifters. Or bar end shifters, of course.

I personally prefer two-piece HT2 chainsets to square tapers. Decent taper BBs do last roughly forever, but the HT2 setup is easier to fit and remove (requiring just a 5mm allen key) and feels stiffer and lighter, which is nice when you're a big chap. I find I can make tapered cranks creak and click on their axles after a while, no matter what I do.

Re a 30T cassette, I think any medium- or long-cage rear mech, road or MTB, would cope.

Big T
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Big T » 23 Nov 2012, 12:14pm

Brucey wrote:
jrclimber wrote: ...PS I am 6ft 5" and 16stone so not really built for out and out speed on 2 wheels, though I guess that's not particularly relevant to my groupset dilemmas!


oh but it is....very much so. I would not for a second recommend 16stone + even light luggage on 130mm OLN rear hubs that are dished for 8/9/10 speed.




There are some very weightist people on here! I'm 18 stone and use just such a set up on my audax bike, works fine. Shimano Tiagra Triple groupset with tiagra hubs (130oln) on CXP33 wheels. I sometimes commute on this bike with a rackpack or saddlebag with no problems whatsoever.I have a similar set up on another bike with Open pro's, that's fine too. Not a single broken spoke on either bike in 3 years.
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Brucey
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2012, 12:55pm

not weightist... strengthist maybe... :wink:

I've seen enough wrecked wheels to have a fair idea what is 'going to work reasonably well' and what is 'quite likely to be very reliable'.

Having said this, not everyone is as hard on their equipment, even at a given weight/strength.

I'm glad your bike is working OK for you, but three years isn't all that long; I'd expect a decent set of wheels to last a fair bit longer than that, barring accidents and rim wear.

Note that many manufacturers (including CampagnoloI IIRC) have a recommended weight limit. Because the stuff might be primarily designed for racers who are (say) ~70kg dripping wet, the weight limit is set fairly low. A lot of people are over it and don't have any real trouble despite this, but many others do experience problems.

The mystifying thing to me is what exactly might be gained by using 130mm OLN equipment. There are plenty of decent 135mm hubs out there (plus respaceable 130mm OLN hubs) which build into stronger wheels for no penalty that I can see. Arguably there is a better choice in 135mm of really robust, well sealed hubs.

As suggested above, a 132.5mm frame leaves your options open. I went with a 132.5mm rear wheel in my roadbike; if the (Ti) frame would've taken a 135mm hub I'd have used that in a heartbeat. Logically, IMHO it is a 'no-brainer'.

cheers
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531colin
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby 531colin » 23 Nov 2012, 1:25pm

Big T wrote:
There are some very weightist people on here! I'm 18 stone and use just such a set up on my audax bike, works fine. Shimano Tiagra Triple groupset with tiagra hubs (130oln) on CXP33 wheels. I sometimes commute on this bike with a rackpack or saddlebag with no problems whatsoever.I have a similar set up on another bike with Open pro's, that's fine too. Not a single broken spoke on either bike in 3 years.


OP refers to touring
Do you expect broken spokes before the rim wears through? I don't. Some say the spokes should do 2 rims, that probably doesn't matter.
Edit....Unless you are OK to take the cassette off at the roadside and replace a broken spoke, a broken spoke when touring is much more of a nuisance than a broken spoke commuting.
Last edited by 531colin on 23 Nov 2012, 1:52pm, edited 1 time in total.

stewartpratt
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby stewartpratt » 23 Nov 2012, 1:34pm

Brucey wrote:The mystifying thing to me is what exactly might be gained by using 130mm OLN equipment.


A much greater choice of frames if you want caliper brakes.
Last edited by stewartpratt on 23 Nov 2012, 1:53pm, edited 1 time in total.

PH
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby PH » 23 Nov 2012, 1:36pm

Deep drop brakes - The Tektro R539 has more clearance than the Shimano deep drops due to it's shape. I can fit 30mm Marathon racers on a frame that struggles to take 28mm with Shimano 6500s. They don't press on the mudguards like the Shimano. I don't notice any difference in braking, though the Shimano finish is possibly a little better.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=72628

If I wanted something that might be used for touring, I'd go for the extra strenght of a more robust MTB based groupset and the ability to take bigger tyres than 28mm. Though on an audax type bike I've had no problems with the Campag wheels and kit, I'm 6'2" and around 15st.

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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2012, 2:35pm

stewartpratt wrote:
Brucey wrote:The mystifying thing to me is what exactly might be gained by using 130mm OLN equipment.


A much greater choice of frames if you want caliper brakes.


fair point (*); mind you if it was a steel frame and I had any concerns about rear wheel strength, rather than 'go heavier' I'd immediately look to reset the rear end wider. I have -in mutual desperation- even persuaded a chunky roadie chum of mine to use a 135mm hub sprung into an aluminium road frame before now. It wasn't his first choice, or mine, but having wrecked a wheel about once every six months (from various local wheelbuilders) it was something of a last resort for him. And it did work; it was the first wheel that he didn't turn to mush in short order.

(* although I was tempted to flippantly suggest that.... you only need one.... :wink: :roll: )

cheers
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stewartpratt
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby stewartpratt » 23 Nov 2012, 2:59pm

Brucey wrote:(* although I was tempted to flippantly suggest that.... you only need one.... :wink: :roll: )


:)

Problem is, when you're 6'5", choice of frames can be pretty slim anyway. Many manufacturers have some odd ideas about geometry at the large end; frames often tend to be short or steep or both, especially when you're looking at more versatile steel frames. For example the Genesis Day One - which would in many respects be an ideal bike for me - has a 74deg seat angle, whereas even with my saddle all the way back on a 20mm-layback post I can't get away with anything steeper than 72. And there are only a small handful of frames with a 72.

Of course, the OP may well be a different shape to me and might be more flexible on seat angle. But a 72 seat plus caliper brakes and a 135mm rear end? I don't think such a frame exists.

pete75
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby pete75 » 23 Nov 2012, 3:19pm

For 57mil drop brakes I'd use these Work well, manufactured in Italy, very reasonable price and, I believe, are an old Campag design passed onto Miche. I hav ethem on a bike with mudguards and 28 mil tyres.


http://www.wiggle.co.uk/miche-performan ... Set-Silver
Last edited by pete75 on 23 Nov 2012, 4:56pm, edited 2 times in total.

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531colin
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby 531colin » 23 Nov 2012, 4:16pm

stewartpratt wrote:
Brucey wrote:(* although I was tempted to flippantly suggest that.... you only need one.... :wink: :roll: )


:)

Problem is, when you're 6'5", choice of frames can be pretty slim anyway. Many manufacturers have some odd ideas about geometry at the large end; frames often tend to be short or steep or both, especially when you're looking at more versatile steel frames. For example the Genesis Day One - which would in many respects be an ideal bike for me - has a 74deg seat angle, whereas even with my saddle all the way back on a 20mm-layback post I can't get away with anything steeper than 72. And there are only a small handful of frames with a 72.

Of course, the OP may well be a different shape to me and might be more flexible on seat angle. But a 72 seat plus caliper brakes and a 135mm rear end? I don't think such a frame exists.



All you TALL guys.....whats your take on frame design for tall guys?
The wheel takes a pounding from the weight, short or tall....
There is a school of thought that says tall frames have problems of their own....http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70176&hilit=+zinn http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69927&hilit=+zinn

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cycleruk
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby cycleruk » 23 Nov 2012, 4:52pm

Just to state the obvious. Deep drop brakes require a deep drop frame. :mrgreen:
A lot of frames that say they are "winter/audax" will only allow 23/25 tyres with mudguards and 49mm brakes.

Regarding gearing - a 28" gear will need equal gearing. eg' 30T front to 30T back = 27".
The 10 speed 105 rear mech' is shown as being O.K. for a 30T sprocket.

From an economic point of veiw.
Campag' 10 speed shifters match exactly with a Shimano 8 speed rear set up.
And that is what I have on my light tourer. - 10 speed Veloce ergos with 8 speed Shimano triple. (23" low to 103" high gear)

[From a practical aspect though I wouldn't get any Campag' that has "QS" (quickshift) on the shifter.]
There's no such thing as a tailwind.
It's either a headwind, or you're going well.

Brucey
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2012, 4:57pm

re the frame geometry; I can't speak from personal experience of very tall frames, but I have had similar frustrations with seat angle choice. I can only suppose that it is even worse on bigger frames, because (say) a one degree error in seat angle causes a bigger error in position.

It would be very helpful if someone manufactured (say) a hockey-stick seat pin with a bigger layback. I'm sure it would sell.

cheers
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jrclimber
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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby jrclimber » 23 Nov 2012, 10:05pm

Many thanks for all the replies - a lot of information to digest. Especially useful to hear from other large riders!!
I had reckoned to spend most of my app £1200 budget on the frame, probably custom. Good to hear Bob Jackson recommended as I'm in Yorkshire and had wondered about paying a visit to the factory.
Have only built 7sp wheels on 130 hubs before and had forgotten (oops!) that dish may be a problem with wider cassettes. One thing I don't understand though - why does having 135 hub "limit choice of caliper brakes"?
Will study all the replies and look at the manufacturer's websites and, probably in a few months time, post what I end up with!

Cheers, JR

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Re: Audax/light touring groupset

Postby PH » 23 Nov 2012, 10:24pm

jrclimber wrote:One thing I don't understand though - why does having 135 hub "limit choice of caliper brakes"?


No reason it should, except off the peg frames are made that way. Manufacturers deciding that caliper = road frame = 130.
If you're going to Bob Jacksons that isn't going to be a problem, they'll re space an off the peg frame or if it's custom you can have what you want.