Supercommuter?

[Brucey]

my chum and I discussed the gears and the possibility of a chaincase at length. I was in favour of both a hub gear and a chaincase; if you put the right (IGH) chain inside a chaincase, it can last almost indefinitely. He argued that an IGH that had gears relatively close together (as he wanted) would be difficult to find and probably both heavy and expensive. He was also concerned about speedy wheel removal in the event of a puncture (they always happen at the worst time when commuting) which mitigated against both IGH and chaincase.

The Dutch (mainly) have had 'quite a few goes' at putting a derailleur setup inside a chaincase but IMHO none of these arrangements has been entirely satisfactory; unlike with an IGH the chain can't be lubed with heavy grease, so is more likely to run dry after a time. Even if protected from all the crud, a derailleur chain, mech etc still don't last indefinitely, although they might last longer than normal. If a fault arises, the whole shebang tends to wreck itself in an alarming and terminal fashion.

As it is, my chum goes through a chain and freewheel once every 18-24 months or so (despite what is tantamount to neglect) and that seems a small price to pay, given that the wear parts are relatively inexpensive. Also, it happens that he only uses three gears most of the time, which means that we could perhaps have gone with an SA AM hub which was one of my original suggestions.

BTW I agree that (as others have commented) most folk just wouldn't pay the labour required to assemble a bike to the required standards. And as for quality of materials, you can only use what you can buy; despite waxoyl etc it has to be said that the plating on some parts (eg the track nuts) on the SA hubs leaves much to be desired.

cheers

[BrownBear]

When I say I compare bike tinkering unfavourably to an annual car service, I mean that primarily from a technical perspective, 'why can't it just keep going for a year?' I've only had the first non-routine car bill at nine years and 70k, but, of course, things can get seriously expensive if you're unlucky. Like almost everyone reading this forum I don't personally mind a bit of bike tinkering, and since, like most, (ahem) I have a few, I accept that it will take a fair bit of time all told. However, I appreciate the wider audience of potential bike commuters doesn't share our enthusiasm for getting our hands dirty. True they aren't keen to pay large sums for maintenance either, hence 'ride to destruction'.

The Subway8 was, indeed, unusual in being marketed as a dependable commuter. And with enough preparation, it may well have been. Disassembly of Hubs probably goes beyond my definition of tinkering, though looking at the 'smoking gun' thread is fascinating. I believe the sealing on the early Alfine 8s was woefully inadequate - it seems to me failure followed shortly after the need to plough thru' a particularly deep puddle. I actually put one of those plastic chainguards on mine that just lay on the chain. That did the job of keeping muck off, though not seeing the chain gave me a few embarrassing cases of slack chain jump.

I think cheap Far East 'garage bikes' have had the insidious effect of devaluing everyone's idea of what cycles, and their maintenance, are worth. For example, my (nearly ninety) father ridicules the amount I spend on bikes and bits when I could "get one for around a £100", and he claims never paid more than that. The thing is he had handbuilt tourers that I tell him it would cost a few thousand for anything remotely equivalent now, and I think if he, who toured the continent, doesn't appreciate the false economy of cheap bikes, then what hope the public?

It will be interesting to see what happens if electric assistance encourages a new breed of commuters, I don't see them expecting to be getting 'down and dirty'.

[Gattonero]

...
It will be interesting to see what happens if electric assistance encourages a new breed of commuters, I don't see them expecting to be getting 'down and dirty'.

When something goes wrong with E-Bikes, is going to be long, big tears!

[Ruadh495]

Why? E-bikes aren't complicated. They do require an additional skill set and have some additional hazards, so if they catch on a new breed of bike mechanics will be needed (and they might be able to name their price for a bit).

[mjr]

He was also concerned about speedy wheel removal in the event of a puncture (they always happen at the worst time when commuting) which mitigated against both IGH and chaincase.

Tell him to stop pratting about removing wheels to fix punctures then? I can't even be bothered to do that on derailleur bikes unless there's some other pressure to do so, like tyres that are narrow and really tight, or the tube has failed beyond patching.

[Gattonero]

Why? E-bikes aren't complicated. They do require an additional skill set and have some additional hazards, so if they catch on a new breed of bike mechanics will be needed (and they might be able to name their price for a bit).

I've recently seen the rear wheel of an e-bike, I believe wasn't the last model, so to speak, but the wheel did weight 9.6kg !
Now, assuming you don't have super-duper puncture proof tyres, in town your worst enemy is glass flints, which may not always stay in the tyre. So you won't see where the hole is, hence the need to remove the whole wheel. It's not easy to be on the side of the road and deal with a wheel that weights nearly 10kg on its own.
Let alone connectors to be undone, axle nuts that aren't a standard size, etcetc.

Btw, what I was referring in terms of damage, was mostly as far as money: a fault in the motor or the batteries is unlikely to be an easy fix that can be done by the LBS. And there are some E-Bike models that are pretty bad engineered, for which simple jobs like removing/replacing a chain would require disassembly of other parts and so on.
And I'm not even talking of the wheelbuild, some hubs are so stupidly oversize that there's no way you can have a decent bracing angle of the spokes and nipples. This is something that drives me mad: how can you engineer and produce a hub that cannot satisfactory make what is supposed to do, being structurally safe in the middle of the wheel???

[bobc]

Seems a slightly odd attitude to the ebikes
if the electrics fail - it's still a bike; pedal on dude
the big hub issue: a legal power ebike will have a hub only slightly larger (if at all) than an IGH or a dynohub. The old nuvinci IGH weighed in at over 4kg for the hub alone & might well be heavier than most legal hub motors. Spoke angles are kept sane by going down to 2cross or 1cross like you would with IGH or dynohub.
A 10kg monster hub would have been considerably over the 250W average limit, many of these things are 3kW average(!)
I've currently lent my ebike to an ex colleague who is "waiting for treatment" for a properly damaged knee. He is thereby now mobile again (has got his life back). Mine was home made & doesn't use a hub motor, so it neatly avoids all the above issues (at the expense of a rather noisy motor meant for a model plane)
I've said before, I like the ebikes; they enable the old or infirm enjoy cycling with more able friends, and regardless of anything they are able to put a big goofy grin on your face. Or get you to work in your work clothes and not all sweaty...

[Gattonero]

Seems a slightly odd attitude to the ebikes
if the electrics fail - it's still a bike; pedal on dude

Yes you pedal, with a few hundred pounds less in your pocket

the big hub issue: a legal power ebike will have a hub only slightly larger (if at all) than an IGH or a dynohub. The old nuvinci IGH weighed in at over 4kg for the hub alone & might well be heavier than most legal hub motors. Spoke angles are kept sane by going down to 2cross or 1cross like you would with IGH or dynohub.

Let's be frank, how many people do use Nuvinci vs Shimano/Sram/S.A.?
The latter, have hubs with a PCD around 92mm for the Alfines, which is reasonable on 700c wheels.

But when you have those ones, it's a different ball game. Just look how bad is the angle of those nipples on the rim

A 10kg monster hub would have been considerably over the 250W average limit, many of these things are 3kW average(!)
I've currently lent my ebike to an ex colleague who is "waiting for treatment" for a properly damaged knee. He is thereby now mobile again (has got his life back). Mine was home made & doesn't use a hub motor, so it neatly avoids all the above issues (at the expense of a rather noisy motor meant for a model plane)
I've said before, I like the ebikes; they enable the old or infirm enjoy cycling with more able friends, and regardless of anything they are able to put a big goofy grin on your face. Or get you to work in your work clothes and not all sweaty...

I've never said I don't like E-bikes.
The problem is that I've seen too many that are badly engineered, with brakes that are not up to the job and other parts that are very cheaply made (fixtures prone to rust, poor quality bb's, etc.).
I'm actually up for the ones with a gearbox type, it's a much better solution. I've tried an MTb and though IMO it does lose the meaning of cycling (you go somewhere by using your legs) it is fun and has got potential.

[Brucey]

I am rather pleased that this thread has not degenerated into a discussion concerning e-bikes and would encourage any such discussion to be carried out in another thread.

A quick update regarding the 'supercommuter'; when I built the bike originally I supplied my chum with spare freewheels. These have all now been used up, so I recently got him some more. The replacement sun race freewheels came with a black finished 14T sprocket and (to my enormous surprise) what I can only describe as 'perfect' bearing adjustment. These freewheels are some of the very few I have ever seen where I did not reckon that the adjustment could be improved. Whether it is just a flash in the pan remains to be seen.

My chum has just fitted his fourth freewheel and given the bike a clean and fettle for the first time in a couple of years. So far the bike has been in daily use for over 5-1/2 years and has done an estimated 15000 miles or perhaps a touch more. Consumable parts have thus far been

- freewheel and chain x3
- tyres (~3 sets of gatorskins)
- rivets on the mudguards (old ones corroded away to nothing)
- some PVC tape that is used to protect parts of the frame (it goes brittle after a few years)

and, er, that's it. Even the rear mech has been looked at and declared fit for further service, pulleys (which have modified bushings) and all. Asides from the PVC tape that is used in nooks and corners, the protective film that covers much of the frame is scuffed in places but continues to do its job.

The brakes have needed adjustment twice, and the linings are about 10% worn.

The shimano BB (packed with much better grease) is still free-running with no signs of free play as yet. Ditto the headset, which is nothing special apart from being carefully set up with super quality grease and loose balls.

The only (sort of) unplanned maintenance has been when

- it was proven that threadlock was required on the NDS spokes after all ( I thought it might be but left it out to start with)
- it was proven that the better lube and the auxiliary seals for the freewheel were required; one replacement freewheel was fitted without these things and it lasted about a month before it seized solid.... (It was rebuilt and used afterwards)
- the pedals (which are cheap ones) have suffered numerous collisions (the screws which tighten the cage onto the body have need to be retightened several times) and may need to be replaced.

My chum has described the bike as being 'the most reliable bike (in that service) that he has ever had' and says he has spent less time and money on it to keep it running nicely than any other bike he has ever owned.

As if any proof were needed, it kind of shows that assembling a bike properly with carefully chosen parts and high standards of build quality is almost certainly a worthwhile investment of one's time, in the long run.

cheers

[LuckyLuke]

Nice work Brucey, congrats on a job well done.
This thread was a catalyst for me to knock together a hub gear / drum brake / dynamo beast on a road / Audax style frame, rather than a on a roadster / Dutch bike frame, for a better riding utility bike.
Will try to take some pics and post later. Sadly got to get back to work now.
Best wishes,
Luke

[Brucey]

yes I'd like to see that and I'm sure others would too

cheers

[mig]

has any more grease gone into the BB? or waxoyl into the frame?

[PH]

My chum has just fitted his fourth freewheel and given the bike a clean and fettle for the first time in a couple of years. So far the bike has been in daily use for over 5-1/2 years and has done an estimated 15000 miles or perhaps a touch more. Consumable parts have thus far been

- freewheel and chain x3
- tyres (~3 sets of gatorskins)
- rivets on the mudguards (old ones corroded away to nothing)
- some PVC tape that is used to protect parts of the frame (it goes brittle after a few years)

cheers

That's a lot of miles for very little money, but I'm most impressed by the lack of maintenance.
I'm more interested in the latter than former, happy to spend more money if it means less time on maintenance. Of course both would be good, but I'm comparing my transport costs with my alternatives (car or public transport) rather than what anyone else can achieve.
I can't think of a possible reason not to have drum brakes on such a bike, yet somehow am still nervous of them, I really ought to get over it and try them. OTOH, I've never found rim brakes to be high maintenance, particularly Vs on carbide rims.

[horizon]

As if any proof were needed, it kind of shows that assembling a bike properly with carefully chosen parts and high standards of build quality is almost certainly a worthwhile investment of one's time, in the long run.

cheers

It's also an encouragement to people like me who are prepared to invest a bit of time learning how to repair and maintain a bike. Even if, as in my case, it's just the basics, you start to get a whole new sense of a how things work, how to make them work better and usually how to save pots of money.

[pwa]

I appreciate what Brucey and his pal are trying to do, and for many it will constitute a "super commuter". But no single bike can meet the needs of all commuters. My own commute home at 10.15pm yesterday involved turning right onto this hill, a good 10%er that goes on for a few hundred metres.https://www.google.com/maps/@51.48203,- ... 6?hl=en-GB



Terrain around here varies from flatish to hilly, so a good range of gears makes commuting easier. If my "super commuter" were to have hub gears I'd be looking for the 14 gears of a Rohloff, not a 3,5 or 8 speed. I'd want a gear range of perhaps 24 - 90 inches or thereabouts.