Joining chain
Joining chain
A few years back, riding home on my new purchase, I noticed an annoying clicking from the chain. Inspection revealed a rubbish chain link which wouldn't sit properly so I whipped out my chain riveter and removed a link, remaking the rivitted joint at the roadside. On thursday, riding home I noticed an annoying clicking/jumping from the chain. It got me home but I've found a side plate has worked itself loose, almost but not quite, off it's rivet. Just fitted a new chain, again using my rivetting tool to join it. It looks good and the joined link moves freely. Anyone want to argue pros and cons of doing it this way? I'm not the sort of person who regularly removes a chain for cleaning!
Re: Joining chain
depends on the chain, but IMHO all modern chains (with slightly mushroomed rivets) are weakened to some extent by rejoining normal links with a chain tool, and even with the same type of chain, it can be pot luck as to how bad it is.
Generally you know you are on sticky wicket if the rivet goes back in easier than it came out, doesn't need 'spreading' after joining, or the rivet moves very easily during spreading.
Normally the rivet enlarges the hole in the side plate slightly as it passes through it. The 'special joining rivets' used in some chains are, I think, slightly oversize, so that they are meant to be a tight fit even in an enlarged hole; however IME these are not 100% reliable, either. Judging from some spectacular chain failures that even professionals have suffered, my observations are not isolated.
I believe that the latest campagnolo 11speed chain uses a chain tool that replicates the factory riveting, by spreading the joining rivet head slightly, presumably to prevent joining link failures and pull-outs.
cheers
Generally you know you are on sticky wicket if the rivet goes back in easier than it came out, doesn't need 'spreading' after joining, or the rivet moves very easily during spreading.
Normally the rivet enlarges the hole in the side plate slightly as it passes through it. The 'special joining rivets' used in some chains are, I think, slightly oversize, so that they are meant to be a tight fit even in an enlarged hole; however IME these are not 100% reliable, either. Judging from some spectacular chain failures that even professionals have suffered, my observations are not isolated.
I believe that the latest campagnolo 11speed chain uses a chain tool that replicates the factory riveting, by spreading the joining rivet head slightly, presumably to prevent joining link failures and pull-outs.
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Joining chain
Not the easiest thing to photograph on a miniature camera, but hopefully you can see what I'm looking at.
On the left is the good old SRAM PC48 (or Sedis, before that) ....A traditionally made chain, with straight-sided rivets. I'm happy to join them with a rivet tool. The rivet is an interference fit in the side plate....you push it out, it fits back in.....no problems.
On the right, a "modern" KMC chain, also 8 speed, showing the way the end of the rivet is "peened over" in the side plate during manufacture. I regard that as a once-only fit.....cut the chain to length with a chain tool, join it with a magic link.
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Re: Joining chain
I must respectfully disagree re SRAM chains; although the shanks are a snug fit in the side-plates, the rivet ends are also mushroomed (to some extent) on all current SRAM chains, and have been on all their derailleur chains starting with the 'sedisport'. They are not as muhroomed as many other chains (and the one in Colin's photo is a good example) but they are still mushroomed.
The most common pattern of rivet head deformation they use leaves two marks on the rivet head, paralell to the length of the chain. The amount of deformation varies, so the PC1 chain (1/8" for singlespeeds, three-speeds etc) is hardly marked in this way, whereas the derailleur chains such as PC58 typically have a heavier deformation. The deformation is done using rollers after the chain is assembled. IIRC it is described in some more detail in e-mail correspondence (reproduced on the main CTC site) between CJ and SRAM on this topic.
The defomation throws material sideways, so the rivets are typically not mushroomed in the chain length direction, but are deformed to each side.
Some observations;
1) when the rivet is pushed out using a chain tool, there is often a distinct 'give' and an audible 'click' sound. This is the overhanging part of the rivet being pushed against/through the side plate.
2) When the rivet is pushed through, usually the overhang shears off the rivet, and leaves a very sharp piece of swarf.
3) If you push the same rivet head through the same side plate again, the force required is much lower, because there is no overhang any more.
4) The other end of the same rivet still has its overhangs. You can feel these and see them.
5) If you try and push a protruding rivet end with its overhangs through the holes in an inner side plate, it generally won't go through, either easily, or sometimes, at all.
6) I think you can see the overhang on the protruding SRAM rivet in Colin's picture, and in addition it looks like the swarf from the other end of the rivet is sat next to the hole in the left side outer side plate.
7) If you get the swarf stuck in your finger, it hurts.
8 ) If you get the swarf stuck in the chain bushing, you can end up with an 'incurable' stiff link.
Once a rivet in a typical SRAM derailleur chain has been pushed out once, then pushed back in again, the subsequent pushout force is about half what it was the first time. There is also the distinct possiblity that the outer sideplate will have been damaged or weakened by the process.
The latter issue can contribute to the chain sideplate failing (splitting) through fatigue. The reduced pushout force means that the chain is more likely to fail (by the rivet pulling out) during (say) a hard shift. Fatigue failure is not guaranteed, and for many purposes involving modest chain loads/angles and considerate gearchanging, I suspect that the reduced pushout force is hardly an issue. SRAM in fact allow this method of chain joining to be used, which presumably suits bike manufacturers, because with chain pliers, it is probably faster and cheaper than using a quicklink.
However, experience suggests that on (say) an MTB subjected to hard use, shifts under load etc a re-riveted chain is a good deal more likely to break or come apart where it has been joined. It is a far better idea to shorten the chain to length and then use a quicklink to join it, if you have the choice.
cheers
The most common pattern of rivet head deformation they use leaves two marks on the rivet head, paralell to the length of the chain. The amount of deformation varies, so the PC1 chain (1/8" for singlespeeds, three-speeds etc) is hardly marked in this way, whereas the derailleur chains such as PC58 typically have a heavier deformation. The deformation is done using rollers after the chain is assembled. IIRC it is described in some more detail in e-mail correspondence (reproduced on the main CTC site) between CJ and SRAM on this topic.
The defomation throws material sideways, so the rivets are typically not mushroomed in the chain length direction, but are deformed to each side.
Some observations;
1) when the rivet is pushed out using a chain tool, there is often a distinct 'give' and an audible 'click' sound. This is the overhanging part of the rivet being pushed against/through the side plate.
2) When the rivet is pushed through, usually the overhang shears off the rivet, and leaves a very sharp piece of swarf.
3) If you push the same rivet head through the same side plate again, the force required is much lower, because there is no overhang any more.
4) The other end of the same rivet still has its overhangs. You can feel these and see them.
5) If you try and push a protruding rivet end with its overhangs through the holes in an inner side plate, it generally won't go through, either easily, or sometimes, at all.
6) I think you can see the overhang on the protruding SRAM rivet in Colin's picture, and in addition it looks like the swarf from the other end of the rivet is sat next to the hole in the left side outer side plate.
7) If you get the swarf stuck in your finger, it hurts.
8 ) If you get the swarf stuck in the chain bushing, you can end up with an 'incurable' stiff link.
Once a rivet in a typical SRAM derailleur chain has been pushed out once, then pushed back in again, the subsequent pushout force is about half what it was the first time. There is also the distinct possiblity that the outer sideplate will have been damaged or weakened by the process.
The latter issue can contribute to the chain sideplate failing (splitting) through fatigue. The reduced pushout force means that the chain is more likely to fail (by the rivet pulling out) during (say) a hard shift. Fatigue failure is not guaranteed, and for many purposes involving modest chain loads/angles and considerate gearchanging, I suspect that the reduced pushout force is hardly an issue. SRAM in fact allow this method of chain joining to be used, which presumably suits bike manufacturers, because with chain pliers, it is probably faster and cheaper than using a quicklink.
However, experience suggests that on (say) an MTB subjected to hard use, shifts under load etc a re-riveted chain is a good deal more likely to break or come apart where it has been joined. It is a far better idea to shorten the chain to length and then use a quicklink to join it, if you have the choice.
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Joining chain
Now you mention it, there is a little lip even on the PC48 rivets.
I'm afraid I've never worried about it, PC48 were around before I was aware of magic links for derailler chains.
As I have just put my last PC48 on the winter bike, I'm going to stick my neck out and say one has never let me down...
If a chain is sold with a magic link, I always use it, and I always have a spare one in the bag; they are just so easy!
I'm afraid I've never worried about it, PC48 were around before I was aware of magic links for derailler chains.
As I have just put my last PC48 on the winter bike, I'm going to stick my neck out and say one has never let me down...
If a chain is sold with a magic link, I always use it, and I always have a spare one in the bag; they are just so easy!
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Re: Joining chain
I think of modern chains, if you are going to join one via riveting, the SRAM 7/8 speed ones are probably going to work best; the lips on the rivets are smaller and tend to break off, leaving what is essentially a plain sided rivet that doesn't damage the side plate too badly as it passes through. Many other chains are a lot worse for re-riveting.
cheers
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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- Posts: 676
- Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 11:27am
- Location: In Wales
Re: Joining chain
Just been searching for past discussion on joining chains in the pre power link way and found this thread. Have just joined a SRAM PC850. Having lost the new power link I had a choice between use the old one or join with the riveting tool. I did the latter.
I notice in 2012 Brucey says SRAM ok with rivet joining......but I can't find any confirmation or otherwise on SRAM site......they just say in a video use the power link provided.
So wondering if anyone knows/can update on chains that are ok to rivet join.
I notice in 2012 Brucey says SRAM ok with rivet joining......but I can't find any confirmation or otherwise on SRAM site......they just say in a video use the power link provided.
So wondering if anyone knows/can update on chains that are ok to rivet join.
old fangled
Re: Joining chain
I personally wouldn't trust your riveted joining link, it may well fail at some time in the future. Ideally you would replace it with the correct quick link but your problem now is to identify the link on which you used the riveting tool. If in doubt fit a new chain.
- NATURAL ANKLING
- Posts: 13780
- Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
- Location: English Riviera
Re: Joining chain
HI,
I normally always rivet chains....but only up to 8 speed!
I carry a q link / magic link as reserve....in case I snap chain (only once in 50 years........opps make that twice with the last being a month ago on a shimano made IN INDIA ...erk).
The first a rusty used bottom end KMC "K" with thin side plates.
I take great care after riveting the pin to make sure you have stickout of pin from plates equal both sides, normally takes me 10-20 minutes till I am satisfied.
Then I mark the pin on the outer plates with permanent "Tipex" so you can inspect the pin periodically.
Q links etc are single and multi use and do wear!
Be extra care ful and inspect regularly and I find more reliable.
If you have to remove a riveted chain again then don't un-rivet at the original riveted site!....Pick another pin.
I normally always rivet chains....but only up to 8 speed!
I carry a q link / magic link as reserve....in case I snap chain (only once in 50 years........opps make that twice with the last being a month ago on a shimano made IN INDIA ...erk).
The first a rusty used bottom end KMC "K" with thin side plates.
I take great care after riveting the pin to make sure you have stickout of pin from plates equal both sides, normally takes me 10-20 minutes till I am satisfied.
Then I mark the pin on the outer plates with permanent "Tipex" so you can inspect the pin periodically.
Q links etc are single and multi use and do wear!
Be extra care ful and inspect regularly and I find more reliable.
If you have to remove a riveted chain again then don't un-rivet at the original riveted site!....Pick another pin.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Re: Joining chain
Narrower chains, or chains for more "speeds" have peened over rivets which cannot be driven out and replaced like old style chains. Whilst I know I can punch out the rivet (which are straight push fit) on an 8 speed chain for the purposes of joining it, I really cannot be bothered and quick links make cleaning a chain simpler because I can take the chain off. I think the only place I still have a fully rivetted chain is on my fixed wheel which is using an 1/8th chain.NATURAL ANKLING wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 2:38pm HI,
I normally always rivet chains....but only up to 8 speed!
Certainly, until at least modern joining links came in, we always fitted fully riveted chains, there was no other way with 3/32. With 1/8 you could use the old horseshow clips, but none of us would do so.
Generations of us grew up knowing how to do this, and I expect our track riders still do so.
-
- Posts: 2519
- Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am
Re: Joining chain
Hi there, Well right now I'm having to visit my LBS to get them to re-rivet my chain on my latest trike.
However even with my ability to do the job I can't do it? With 4 chain tools not one of them will cope with the job!
Confession time - It is a 1949 Higgins Ultralite that started out in life on fixed gear. Now has a multi block, with 3 cogs, 1/8" chain, so split link won't work with the deraillieur Could use the hammer and a nail that I used to do such jobs with . MM
However even with my ability to do the job I can't do it? With 4 chain tools not one of them will cope with the job!
Confession time - It is a 1949 Higgins Ultralite that started out in life on fixed gear. Now has a multi block, with 3 cogs, 1/8" chain, so split link won't work with the deraillieur Could use the hammer and a nail that I used to do such jobs with . MM
- NATURAL ANKLING
- Posts: 13780
- Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
- Location: English Riviera
Re: Joining chain
Hi,
Problem with riveting chains is not knowing how good the join is until the rivet is home again!
1/8" chain will have more options for a soft link if you can get them and they still make them for your chain?
Other option is if derailleur is to use a six speed or less, derailleur chain, if it would be wide enough for your sprockets?
Problem with riveting chains is not knowing how good the join is until the rivet is home again!
1/8" chain will have more options for a soft link if you can get them and they still make them for your chain?
Other option is if derailleur is to use a six speed or less, derailleur chain, if it would be wide enough for your sprockets?
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Re: Joining chain
IMG_5481 by 531colin, on Flickr
Thats the business end of my chain tool. Its only ever used on my chains, which have all been KMC 8 speed for several years now.
The little necklaces round the pin are the "peened over" bits of the rivets which I have pushed out.
The moral of this story.......pushing a rivet out damages even (KMC) 8 speed chain. Use a magic link.
Thats the business end of my chain tool. Its only ever used on my chains, which have all been KMC 8 speed for several years now.
The little necklaces round the pin are the "peened over" bits of the rivets which I have pushed out.
The moral of this story.......pushing a rivet out damages even (KMC) 8 speed chain. Use a magic link.
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Re: Joining chain
Do you have any preferences or recommendations for magic links, please, Colin?
Thanks
Jonathan
Thanks
Jonathan
Re: Joining chain
When I thought it might matter, I used to get Connex joining links. I thought they were a bit easier to operate.
But as I don't mess about taking chains off to clean them, I just use the link which comes with the chain.
Incidentally, I think its ridiculous to carry a tool to operate magic links, which are, after all, supposed to be "tool free".....thats part of the attraction, Shirley?
To separate a recalcitrant link, stand the link on the chainwheel and tap the other end with whatever comes to hand. ( a few seconds examining the link will show you which bit to tap in order to open it.)
But as I don't mess about taking chains off to clean them, I just use the link which comes with the chain.
Incidentally, I think its ridiculous to carry a tool to operate magic links, which are, after all, supposed to be "tool free".....thats part of the attraction, Shirley?
To separate a recalcitrant link, stand the link on the chainwheel and tap the other end with whatever comes to hand. ( a few seconds examining the link will show you which bit to tap in order to open it.)
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/