Ultegra - XT compatibility

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reohn2
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby reohn2 » 23 Jan 2013, 8:54am

531colin wrote:Mountain and road front mechs. are different cable pull, so you can't mix shifter and mech. if its indexed.
My approach would be 110/74 BCD square taper chainset, available with any rings you choose down to 24T....square taper BBs are generally regarded as very hard wearing, and you can get close to a "road" chainline.


+1 But I'd run a 46or48t outer 34t middle and you can go as low as 24 for the inner.
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531colin
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby 531colin » 23 Jan 2013, 9:03am

reohn2 wrote:
531colin wrote:Mountain and road front mechs. are different cable pull, so you can't mix shifter and mech. if its indexed.
My approach would be 110/74 BCD square taper chainset, available with any rings you choose down to 24T....square taper BBs are generally regarded as very hard wearing, and you can get close to a "road" chainline.


+1 But I'd run a 46or48t outer 34t middle and you can go as low as 24 for the inner.



Its 10 speed R2.....I'm not certain that eg Impact are OK with 10 speed....?
But for my simple non-index 8&9 speed I start at 24...then usually 34 middle and whatever the front mech. wants as the "big" ring....I don't do big gears anyway.

EDIT.....actually, IF I wanted 10 speed and STI (I don't want either) I would just try it....theres a spacer between the spider and the middle ring, and I expect you could buy an Impact and get somebody to machine it to get the rings closer together, all for the price of Ultegra.

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Erudin
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby Erudin » 23 Jan 2013, 9:32am

How are durable are 10 speed chains/cassettes for touring? They have been out for a while and being used for mountain biking now, but I can't find much hard data comparing them to 7/8/9 speed apart from the bottom link (where Shimano XT 10 speed is not wearing faster than Shimano XT 9 speed).

See also:

http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/retrogrouch.html

Crazyguyonabike Poll: Bicycle chains for touring?

10 speed Chainwear Test by Wippermann

http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/12/19/chainwear-challenge-check-up/

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531colin
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby 531colin » 23 Jan 2013, 10:08am


reohn2
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby reohn2 » 23 Jan 2013, 10:24am

531colin wrote:
hayaman wrote:OK, thanks everyone. So much useful information. I wish Shimano would pay attention and make a touring road set up with a sufficient range for big mountain climbing...............


Some brakes would be nice, too......and the odd cassette with say 34T but without starting at 11T, 12T, that you don't need.



(they aren't listening...... :wink: )


IMHO our(UK tourists) problems stem from the fact that we're an odd bunch in that we like to tour with drops,whereas most the rest of the world like straight bars(though there is hope in the colonies :) ).Straight bars work well with any MTB or "Trekking" drivetrain,not so drops especially as more people want STI's which means using road chainsets,which in turn limits chainring size.
The quest(?) for more cogs on the back is complete folly IMO throw into that the insistance by manufacturers to outlaw the triple chainset which is,frankly,bonkers.
The latest lunacy from Mr Shimano for his MTB gruppos to be 10sp which is not compatable with either 10sp or 9sp road or 9sp MTB gruppos :? whereas the 9sp system was the same for both road and MTB a curiosity which didn't kill or maim anyone's cat.
But hey you can have an IHG 7,8or11sp,that's if you like pedalling in treacle or don't ride if there's more than 3% moisture in the atmosphere and absolutely no puddles :?
I digress..........
Our(us out on a limb as the wood cutter approaches) problem is one of gearchangers and finding the right ratios for our out moded and old fashioned systems :? .
If we limit ourselves to the very limiting :? 9sp or even heaven forbid,very old fashioned and even more limiting 8sp rear and the ver,ver, unfashionable :? triple chainset,there's hope :idea: .
It comes in the shape of a 14-25 Tiagra and 11-32or34 9sp and 11-32or34 8sp cassettes,by the split and make up method I can make 8sp or 9sp 14-32or34 cassettes and by using the Spa(thanks be to God) or Stronglight chainsets can have triple and wide range(if I wish) chainset to suit and as a bonus a squaretaper BB which actually lasts :) .
STI's can be older Tiagra,105,Ultegra, and unfashionable :? 9sp units or the new Sora double paddle units :) if I require or the older 8sp Sora units,though they have a slightly different upchange lever which I don't get on with personally though others may do.
If I require other types of changers there's always d/tube,b/ends,Colin's(when in full production,there is a big enough market I'm sure so keep up the good work) or Kelly take off's,used with either 8 or 9sp units.
As for mechs,SoraTiagra,105 or Ultegra road,work with STI's and the other levers mentioned above and the Spa and s/light Impact c/sets with a big ring minimum of 46 and a middle of no bigger than 36t (if the mech is moved up the seatube slightly to compensate for a 12t difference ie setting it as if there were a 48t big ring,obviously this doesn't apply if using a 48to36 or 46to34 combo.
If you wish to go for a 44-32-22 MTB chainset,a 8or9sp MTB front mech is needed and limits the front changer to friction.
I think that covers it for Mr Shimano's managerie of gruppos,other than to say his chains are cr@p and I prefere Sram's offerings and their 9sp 971 chains work on 8sp and 9sp systems very well indeed.

PS I f the Mods think this is worth it,this post could be put in the to good to loose section.

Edit:- I've made some small changes and corrected some typo's :oops:
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Brucey
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby Brucey » 23 Jan 2013, 11:14am

FWIW much of the width reduction comes in the chain side plates, not the rollers, chain bushings or sprockets. So wear shouldn't be so badly affected. Five or ten percent if the same materials are used.

Well that is the idea, anyway.

In reality it is more complicated than that. They don't always use the same materials. They also like to 'rationalise' side plates between many different chains, which can swing matters in any direction you like.

For example I've always used 1/8" chain on IGHs and singlespeeds, reckoning that the chains would have larger bushings and would be more stretch resistant. I've had to think again.... the most recent 1/8" chains I've bought (both KMC and SRAM) are bushingless, and use the same inner sideplates as their 7/8 speed chains, just pushed further apart with a wider roller. So, same bushing area, same high wear rate.

With any given new chain standard I think they try and make them as durable as they can. However a few years down the line, I think the quality of parts often gets quietly downgraded, as that specification of transmission becomes a more cost-sensitive, commoditised product. This effect is exacerbated by the treatment it receives, too. I mean, who looks after (say) a 7s transmission as well as they would the latest fancy 10/11s speed stuff? Not many people.

cheers
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hayaman
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby hayaman » 30 Jan 2013, 12:27am

I've done a bit more online research and it seems there are ways to make the Ultegra 10-sp setup more touring friendly. There is a lot of information at the following website about suitable replacement chainrings and possible gear ratios for both 9- and 10-speed: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/chainrings.asp
It seems the new 10-sp triple Ultegra won't allow a big change in chainrings, but I think you can put on a slightly smaller inner ring with few problems. Shimano don't seem to make them, but Specialites TA Zelito so 28T, 26T, 25T, 24T which are compatible. I think I will try a 28T to start with. I am not sure if anything smaller will fit on the Ultegra spider.
This leaves the problem of the unusability of the 52T outer ring with the 12T, 13T, and for me 14T cassette cogs. It turns out that Ultegra CS6600 do a 16-27T cassette (some websites call it 'junior' gearing). Other forums say that the CS6600 is compatible with the newer Ultegra 6700 drivetrain. I reckon a 52-39-28 chainset paired with a 16-27 cassette will work well for general riding, and then put on an MTB cassette (11-34 or 11-36) for big mountain tours. If I could only find a 16-36T cassette....

Brucey
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby Brucey » 30 Jan 2013, 1:14am

Not all Ultegra triples are made similar;

FC-6603 has 74mm BCD inner ring and will accept a smaller chainring down to 24T.

However;

FC-6703 (and FC-4603) has a 92mm BCD inner ring and AFAIK 30T is your lot.

This has been discussed previously here;

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63075

If you don't yet own a FC-6603 chainset, I should get on with it. They will soon only be available used, I expect.

cheers
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531colin
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby 531colin » 30 Jan 2013, 7:25am

You might be able to make up the cassette you really want by buying a cassette designed for junior racing (where the rules restrict the gear ratios used, therefore no really small sprockets) and a mountain bike cassette, taking them to bits and using the sprockets you actually want. The snag is that on the posh Shimano cassettes the bigger sprockets are riveted onto alloy carriers....it works OK on 9 speed HG50 and Tiagra 9 speed restricted gear road cassettes.

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cycleruk
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby cycleruk » 30 Jan 2013, 9:25am

Brucey wrote:Not all Ultegra triples are made similar;

FC-6603 has 74mm BCD inner ring and will accept a smaller chainring down to 24T.

However;
FC-6703 (and FC-4603) has a 92mm BCD inner ring and AFAIK 30T is your lot.

This has been discussed previously here;
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63075

If you don't yet own a FC-6603 chainset, I should get on with it. They will soon only be available used, I expect.
cheers


Can verify that as I did have a the latest Ultegra.
The latest 105 triple is still 130/74 BCD, which I now have and will take a smaller granny ring. The 130 BCD though still limits the middle ring to 39T which is a bit limiting for a tourer. (the 105 is only a "few" grams heavier than the Ultegra.)
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hayaman
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby hayaman » 30 Jan 2013, 10:07am

Thanks cycleruk and Brucey - you have saved me wasting my money on a new Ultegra chainset that won't take a sub-30 inner ring. Looks like I might have to go for the 105.

hayaman
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby hayaman » 28 Dec 2013, 11:46am

I am sorry to revive this old post but I just wanted to report on the set up I have ended up with on my drop handlebar touring bike. I now have the following:
Shimano Ultegra 6703 break/shifters
Shimano Ultegra 6703 front derailleur
Shimano 105 triple chainset, with the inner ring replaced with a 24T TA ring
Shimano Ultegra 6700 GS medium cage rear derailleur
Shimano Ultegra 12-28 6700 cassette

This set up works really well. I had earlier tried to use a 9-speed XT derailleur (following the advice on this forum) but I did not get smooth gear changes. At one end of the range it changed up too far, but at the other end it didn't change up enough. The Ultegra derailleur is only a medium cage, but it has plenty of spare capactity - I think it will work well with a 30T cassette.

I decided to go for the Ultegra BR-CX70 cantilever brakes as Shimano says they are compatible with the 6703 levers. They do indeed work very well - much better than my old 105 cantilevers. I have set up the brakes with Cane Creek Crosstop brake levers which also work really nicely. I also like the Ultegra pads the brakes came with - no noise and good stopping power in the wet.

It took a long time to get a good touring set up, but I am finally happy with what I've got. Thanks again to everyone who offered advice.

Brucey
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby Brucey » 28 Dec 2013, 11:54am

that sounds like a nice setup.

I'm a bit bemused as to why the 9s XT mech wasn't so good though; was the cable correctly mounted in the pinch bolt? It is very easy to turn the tab washer or put the cable on the wrong side of the tab etc and this does produce the effect that you seem to have encountered.

cheers
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Tonyf33
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Re: Ultegra - XT compatibility

Postby Tonyf33 » 3 Jan 2014, 1:30am

You can run pretty much any chainset with 10 speed, My most recent setup had Stronglight impact with 9 speed rings though I've used a 99 bis from the 70s with the drilled out chainrings & that has been fine also.
The latest 11 speed Ultegra 6800 has a rear derailleur designed for an 11-32 cassette