New cups for Shimano hubs

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fausto99
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New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby fausto99 » 10 Mar 2013, 1:31pm

Shimano appear to want you to buy a new hub when the cup becomes worn or pitted. I believe I have found a fix; use a Campagnolo cup! Campy cups are about 1-2 thou smaller in o.d. than Shimano but you can use some brass sheet shim and superglue to take up the slack.

You will have a problem getting the old Shimano cup out because the cup i.d. is larger than the hub i.d. so it is not possible to tap it out from the other side with a drift unless you can grind or machine out the hub first. Probably not worth the agro for a cheap hub but I had a rare 28hole Ultegra which is no longer made, to restore.

Brucey
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby Brucey » 10 Mar 2013, 1:58pm

not all Campag and not all shimano cups are the same diameters. It might be worth giving some dimensions and/or part numbers to help others out here.

Another issue is that once you have the cup installed, there is no guarantee that the contact angles with match properly with the cones meant for that hub; a badly matched contact angle will cause the cone and the cup to wear at x10 or x100 the usual rate. [I have a practical method for testing this BTW; I have posted it before, I'll dig the link out later if people want.]

If a worn cup cannot easily be removed, a MIG welder is your friend; a long ~M8 bolt head can be welded onto the old cup, and a few smart taps with a hammer on the other end will see it out of the hub. The heat and distortion from welding usually helps everything come free, which is a bonus.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JohnW
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby JohnW » 10 Mar 2013, 2:37pm

This may or may not help, but I have recently (well, within the last five years) bought bearing cups for Campag Record and Tipo hubs from Mercian - they may also be able to get what you want. Beware though, because the cups that I bought were individually turned and expensive - worth the money, but expensive. Mercian get them (or they did then) purpose made. You'd probably have to take a sample of the original cup to Mercian.

I have had purpose made cones and spindles from Spa - again they get them made to order, and they may not be in stock at any time.

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fausto99
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby fausto99 » 11 Mar 2013, 5:30pm

Brucey wrote:not all Campag and not all shimano cups are the same diameters. It might be worth giving some dimensions and/or part numbers to help others out here.
Specifically, the Shimano hub was FH-6402 and the Campagnolo cups were FH-VL001, ~£6 from SJS cycles. Agreed Mercian are expensive.
Original Shimano cup: od=29.5, height=8.15, material thinkness=2.0, id=12
Campagnolo cup: od=29.3, height=9.10 material thinkness=1.6, id=13
I ended up using the 1 thou brass shim. Sorry about mixing metric and imperial :wink:
Brucey wrote:Another issue is that once you have the cup installed, there is no guarantee that the contact angles with match properly with the cones meant for that hub; a badly matched contact angle will cause the cone and the cup to wear at x10 or x100 the usual rate. [I have a practical method for testing this BTW; I have posted it before, I'll dig the link out later if people want.
Duly noted and warned. I am an electronics not a mechanical engineer.
Brucey wrote:If a worn cup cannot easily be removed, a MIG welder is your friend; a long ~M8 bolt head can be welded onto the old cup, and a few smart taps with a hammer on the other end will see it out of the hub. The heat and distortion from welding usually helps everything come free, which is a bonus.
I don't have access to a welder. I do have friends with lathes and milling machines.

PT1029
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby PT1029 » 11 Mar 2013, 8:08pm

I do remember some years ago seeing that some company in the USA made replacement cups for Shimano hubs. I can't remember any details, and a quick look on the web drew a blank.
As an electronics engineer you may be tempted to do what a friend of mine tried once, he filled the cup pits in with solder. Not suprisingly, it didn't take him long to realise it was not a good idea!

Brucey
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby Brucey » 12 Mar 2013, 2:06pm

Re the practical test for cup/cone matching; see here;

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=59209&p=500306&hilit=sharpie#p500306

TBH I'm not sure how easy it is to do this kind of test on loose cups. Possibly you might have to assemble a 'dummy hub' using two cups butting up to a length of tube or something.

cheers
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freeflow
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby freeflow » 12 Mar 2013, 3:24pm

SJS have a a range of replacement cones from third party manufacturers. I successfuly replaced worn cones on some LX hubs dating from 1992 using such parts.

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fausto99
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby fausto99 » 12 Mar 2013, 3:46pm

sharpie test is a bit difficult when both cup and cone are black-adised (?) already from new. I may try a red paint pen.....

Ended up using a yellow highlighter pen. Still not easy to see. Not super smooth, but probably worth a go before I break the bank for a 28h Dura-ace or similar :mrgreen: .
Last edited by fausto99 on 12 Mar 2013, 10:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brucey
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby Brucey » 12 Mar 2013, 4:48pm

BTW a black colour on these parts might well be a phosphate finish. The balls will probably mark this anyway.

Whatever you use, the layer needs to be very thin to make the test valid. I'd suggest perhaps a thin spray of 1K aerosol primer might be worth a try...?

cheers
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fausto99
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby fausto99 » 14 Mar 2013, 10:36am

Assuming the worst, if it turns out that I get less than 1000 miles out of this bodge, has anyone succeeded in finding an off-the-shelf sealed bearing to fit a Shimano rear LHS?

Brucey
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby Brucey » 14 Mar 2013, 10:44am

you can grind cartridge bearings down to fit these non-standard (for sealed cartridge bearing units) sized holes.

However, what you can't do is run with a deep groove bearing in the LH side and the conventional cup and cone bearing in the right side; the side load will very quickly destroy the deep groove bearing.

If you want to run with just one sealed bearing, it has to be an angular contact one. These are pricey and will still need to be made to fit the hub somehow. It would be cheaper to buy another hub, and rebuild the wheel, or rob the bearing race from it if you don't want to rebuild the wheel.

If you shop around, you can buy a cheap shimano cassette hub for less than £10, and you get all the other spare parts too....

cheers
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fausto99
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby fausto99 » 14 Mar 2013, 11:38am

Are you saying that I could transfer cup, cassette, axle and cone from a £10 hub into my old Ultegra??

Have just found this Novatech hub http://www.totalcycling.com/a-z/hubs/hu ... tAodSn8AKA
Am going to try to get dimensions/drawing. Otherwise a 28h Hope hub is around £130.

Brucey
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby Brucey » 14 Mar 2013, 12:05pm

re parts swapping; very possibly, yes. Quite a few cassette bodies will swap out too with a bit of fiddling, even if you need to worry about end seals etc.

IIRC DA cups are a fair bit smaller but (no guarantees, mind) many other shimano ones are similar to one another.

CR have deore M510 rear hubs 32h for less than nine quid; has to be worth a punt, that.[edit; also RSX 410 even cheaper in 36h] Worst case is that you rebuild around the new hub (respaced if necessary).

BTW apologies if this is b-obvious, but be sure to adjust the new hub correctly; the hub should have a little play in the bearings, that just disappears when the QR is tightened. No play when the wheel is out of the frame means the bearings are too tight and will wear prematurely.

A lot of people experience premature wears and/or slag off shimano hubs (or even cup and cone hubs in general) because 'they don't last' when in fact they have never been adjusted correctly. They are IME invariably set too tight from the factory.

A simple way of testing for the correct adjustment is to tighten the QR onto a couple of thick M10 washers (in place of dropouts) and see how that feels. If you start from a 'no-play' adjustment, it will feel like a grinding machine when you turn the spindle with the QR tight, mainly because it is exactly that.

cheers
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fausto99
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby fausto99 » 14 Mar 2013, 1:35pm

Thanks for that. I knew the theory about it being loose before applying the QR, but had never thought of the washer trick to test it for real. Very good tip.

BTW have now found this- http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/product/58 ... d-hub.html Ambrosio hub. £54 for a new hub with no messing may be the best way to go. Must stop this and get out while the sun lasts.

JohnW
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Re: New cups for Shimano hubs

Postby JohnW » 14 Mar 2013, 2:13pm

Brucey wrote:............................be sure to adjust the new hub correctly; the hub should have a little play in the bearings, that just disappears when the QR is tightened. No play when the wheel is out of the frame means the bearings are too tight and will wear prematurely.

A lot of people experience premature wears and/or slag off shimano hubs (or even cup and cone hubs in general) because 'they don't last' when in fact they have never been adjusted correctly. They are IME invariably set too tight from the factory.................


I'm not the knowledgable technician that you, and others on the Forum, are Brucey, but my experience down the years accords absolutely with what you say.

It does take time, care and attention - and experience - though. It can be a devil of a job to get it just right.

I learned this lesson early on when we were changing from solid spindles to hollow quick release spindles. Solid spindle bearings were adjusted "just right" off the bike.

With the supply of spindles/cones/balls/cups available from Spa and Mercian (and others, as named on this thread) I will continue with my Campag Record screw-on hubs for as long as I can. I still have a pair with the original cups, and I can't remember how many rims they'e worn out. I average about 9 to 10,000 miles a year now (although in 2012 it was less that 8,000 due to my tendancy to avoid underwater cycling), which is about a pair of rims per year and providing I'm happy with the number of sprockets on available freewheel blocks (which I am), then I see no reason to change.

The big advantage with 'Freehub' hubs is that the gear-side bearings are at the drop-outs and not near the middle of the spindle, and there is therefore less of a tendancy to bend the spindle.

I have one cassette 'freehub' rear spindle in service at the moment, but as it's on the bike that never goes out in the rain it hasn't exactly been put to the test. It's still in it's first rim.