Fit question stretched out on the hoods

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Jezrant
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Jezrant » 18 Mar 2013, 3:29pm

Mark1978 wrote:One of the reasons I went with Trek is that it has a 34/30 bottom gear which is lower than many other brands. I have a saddle bag (although I could do with a bigger one!) and I'll be getting mudguards shortly ;)


Welcome to the club. Just need to get rid of that Trek. :wink:

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531colin
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby 531colin » 18 Mar 2013, 3:33pm

You are absolutely right, there is room for every type of cycling, and every type of cyclist.
Its absurd for me as an old fart to expect any bright-eyed youngster to want to do my kind of riding.....and in reality, I actually don't expect that.
Equally absurd to expect them to buy "my kind of bike" as well, I suppose, which is all I was trying to say, really..... :oops:

Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Mark1978 » 18 Mar 2013, 3:38pm

keyboardmonkey wrote:Hi, Mark. Sorry to have it confirmed that you are in pain rather than just struggling a bit. You’re 2 inches shorter than me with the same inside leg measurement.


That might not be the same as a properly measured inside leg, it's just the trousers I wear.

I’m not surprised you can’t reach the brakes. Did they have a 50cm bike to try in the shop? I can’t seem to find out how long the top tube is on the smaller bike, but it’s a bit late now as you’ve got the 52cm model.


There's some dimensions here. http://www.trekbikes.com/uk/en/bikes/ro ... madone_2_1 53.4cm on the 52cm and 52.1 on the 50cm

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531colin
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby 531colin » 18 Mar 2013, 3:40pm

Re...."Keyboardmonkey".....
The "reach"of the 50cm is only 5mm less than the 52, but you lose 10mm of head tube....http://www.trekbikes.com/ie/en/bikes/road/sport/madone_2_series/madone_2_3_h2_compact/#/ie/en/model/fit_sizing?url=ie/en/bikes/road/sport/madone_2_series/madone_2_3_h2_compact

Don't worry about top tube length, its the length in front of the BB that counts ("frame reach") ....messing around with the seat tube angle alters the top tube length, but it doesn't matter a jot because you set saddle layback relative to the BB.

Malaconotus
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Malaconotus » 18 Mar 2013, 3:53pm

531colin wrote:But the decision to buy is made by the purchaser....not the manufacturer, and not the bloke in the shop.
I have tried more times than I can remember to get folk to use mudguards, saddlebags, sensible gear ratios and comfortable positions.
Until they have struggled on over-geared bikes, torturing their necks to see where they are going, soaked in filthy spray and rain because they have nowhere to carry waterproofs, THEY DONT WANT TO KNOW.
If Trek don't sell them a sexy bike, somebody else will.


^^^^ THIS!!!

Please don't blame the bike shops. We know. Look at the bikes that bike shop staff ride; even many of the young 'uns have guards, wider tyres, racks, taller headtubes, triple chainsets.

I show customers my Surly LHT, my Trek Soho, my Salsa Vaya, all off the peg bikes which don't have the design flaws which come up again and again on here (and which work for very tall people like myself.) And just occasionally, people get it, and I custom order something practical, sensible, versatile. And we sell plenty of cheaper models with racks, with guards, with taller front ends and wider gear ranges.

But what do customers actually want to buy? If we don't sell them fashionable modern road bikes, someone else will.

Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Mark1978 » 18 Mar 2013, 3:57pm

I may well be too late for a 50cm , but then I don't feel that the bike is too big, aside from the issue of the hoods being too far away. I doubt they would swap my bike out in any case...

JohnW
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby JohnW » 18 Mar 2013, 4:21pm

Malaconotus wrote:...........But what do customers actually want to buy?............


............and do they know what the do want until they've ridden what they don't want and discovered their mistake................?

As Colin infers, cycling is avery broad church, and within that nothing is the 'wrong kind of cycling', but (and this is deviating slightly) fashion is a blight which wastes such a lot of money. I was in a bike shop in Portsmouth a few months ago. A young person who had just graduated from the University there had been one of the lucky ones (despite government policy) and had got a job. The young person lived about a mile and a half from her place of work, and was going to commute by bike. Portsmouth is a flat, heavily urbanised area but the customer was insisting on a bike with front suspension. The salesman tried to tell her that the suspension was a waste of money (especially within her budget) and unecessary weight - and just something else to maintain and eventually to go wrong. He recomended a less expensive hybrid, which would have been much more suitable.

After she'd gone (she bought the three ton MTB) he served me, and he said that he sells so many similar bikes in similar situations, and he knows the buyer is buying the wrong thing, but the huyer won't listen. Apparently it is not uncommon for such a bike to be taken to a local second-hand dealer and exchanged for a more suitable and much older bike.

There may be a lot of people who aspire to your kind of cycling Colin, but they don't know it.

On the other hand - there are glitzy and sparkling adverts that exhort their readers to buy the glitzy and glamorous wonder bikes that will transform their effort into supersonic flight and give tham all that they could wish for. Well, that's an exaggeration of course, but considering some of the adverts and the on-line promises and rhetoric, it is understandable that some people forget that ".....all that glitters is not gold.....", and you see them around, simply wanting to enjoy a few miles in quiet countryside and trying to push the size of gears that made Beryl Burton famous. I can agree with what Colin says about customers who don't heed advice, but common sense doesn't always impress like bright lights and loud adverts do. The advertising and marketing boys have a lot to answer for. And for the record Colin, I don't include Spa in that.

My edit is the addition of the final paragraph (in bold), which for some reason stayed in my draft, and didn't get transmitted
Last edited by JohnW on 18 Mar 2013, 5:42pm, edited 3 times in total.

Jezrant
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Jezrant » 18 Mar 2013, 4:48pm

531colin wrote:You are absolutely right, there is room for every type of cycling, and every type of cyclist.
Its absurd for me as an old fart to expect any bright-eyed youngster to want to do my kind of riding.....and in reality, I actually don't expect that.
Equally absurd to expect them to buy "my kind of bike" as well, I suppose, which is all I was trying to say, really..... :oops:


as a bona fide card-carrying member of the old fart club myself, I'd buy your kind of bike if you could just make it a bit sexier.

Malaconotus
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Malaconotus » 18 Mar 2013, 5:37pm

Mark1978 wrote:I may well be too late for a 50cm , but then I don't feel that the bike is too big, aside from the issue of the hoods being too far away. I doubt they would swap my bike out in any case...


You don't need a 50cm, Mark, and in any event the top tube is shortened on that size by the undesirable characteristics of a slacker head angle (which makes it handle like a tourer, not like a road bike as it is supposed to) and an even steeper seat angle (see all the discussion above) The head tube is also shorter leaving the bars 10mm lower, which would not be a good thing for you, I suspect.

The fact is the reach on your bike is just about as short as it can be without introducing other, perhaps worse, compromises such as toe overlap (clipping the front wheel with your toes) or a very upright ride for those of average proportions, which after all isn't what a road bike is supposed to have.

The two things you can do to reduce reach which don't affect the handling, ride, and purpose of a road bike are shorter stem, whcih you're already on the case on, or shorter throw bars. The reach from tops to hoods has generally lessened in modern designs but still varies quite widely, and there are some very short reach designs on the market, which effectively could shorten your reach by another 20mm if your bars are a standard design. This is a more expensive, and more involved task, but is worth considering if you still feel very uncomfortable with the shorter stem.

Above all, I think you should persist, and make tweaks. For your height, a 52cm road bike is about right and the Madone is a good road bike with typical modern geometry, and not the most aggressive position. I suspect, from looking at your saddle to bar drop on a smaller size frame that you have relatively long legs for your height, and consequently a relatively short torso which puts the bars a little bit further away. But reach differences between frames are small, and modifications are straightforward and often necessary to get a comfortable position. And the position you are comfortable with will change. I am not young, or flexible, or fit, and I didn't find drops comfortable at first. I used upright and short stems but higher mileages, more weight on the pedals, and core muscles which just built up gradually over time, all mean my position is now a lot longer, and lower, and no less comfortable. I own fourteen stems, and several lovely bikes which fit beautifully, but I'm still tweaking.

Hope the new stem helps and you start enjoying your new bike soon.
Last edited by Malaconotus on 18 Mar 2013, 10:15pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Mark1978 » 18 Mar 2013, 5:58pm

Thanks for the reassurance :)

keyboardmonkey
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby keyboardmonkey » 18 Mar 2013, 8:22pm

Mark1978 wrote:Thanks for the reassurance :)


I think you're right to be reassured. What Malaconotus and 531colin have said in their latest posts makes a lot of sense. I think I was drawing too much on my own - much more limited - experience and trying to fit that to your experience.

Incidentally, I've always thought I have disproportionally short legs and a longer torso. Which is why I find it relatively easy to reach the STI levers on my Kinesis with its longish top tube.

Replace that stem, but hang on to the old one, just in case :)

JohnW
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby JohnW » 18 Mar 2013, 10:08pm

keyboardmonkey wrote:...............Replace that stem, but hang on to the old one, just in case


...........thats good advice.

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Mick F
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Mick F » 19 Mar 2013, 7:37am

Forget my thoughts yesterday morning.
I was wrong of course. Sorry. :oops:
Out all day yesterday driving the community bus with 15 passengers on board for a trip to Truro.

I was in a rush and wasn't thinking properly. Of course the saddle setback will be the same for the same angle of seat tube no matter the size.
Mick F. Cornwall

Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Mark1978 » 21 Mar 2013, 3:19pm

Edwards wrote:If the Stem is changed then the height of the steerer tube BELOW THE STEM could change. If this happens you will need different thicknesses of Spacers (rings under the Stem) to get this to the same as before.


I was fine until I read this statement. Since I don't have spare spacers just lying around. Would stems not have a standard height anyway? The last thing I want is to swap it out and find that it doesn't work because I'm missing parts..

I've actually ordered one of these http://www.evanscycles.com/products/rit ... 5#features (and the 17deg Bontranger one!) is it likely to fit?

Brucey
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Postby Brucey » 21 Mar 2013, 3:27pm

the stem stack height does vary a little, but it is a 'suck it and see' job; there is no standard. The top of the steerer should come to about 2-4mm below the top of the stem.

Any LBS will have extra spacers if you need them BTW, but if you new stem is taller than the old one it'll be a case of removing one, not adding one.

cheers
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