bike positioning help please

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samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 19 Apr 2013, 8:33pm

Tatanab you are right, I was reviewing my position on the way home. I tend to drop my elbows and push back on the seat with my hands holding the top of the hoods if that makes sense.

I did try it with the seat back 5mm but it felt all wrong and my legs were hurting and I kept going forward and could not make any power, so I moved it back.

Colin my crank to the top of the seat is 77cm. I am pretty sure that my knee is slightly bent at the bottom of the stroke but my legs are not as bent as others. We have not discussed sore knees I need to find the stretching exercises. It's my trapezius and lower back that are killing me at the moment.

I did have a fitting with condor who recommended a 100mm stem but it was rather quick and dirty.

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531colin
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby 531colin » 19 Apr 2013, 10:09pm

My BB axle to top of saddle measured along the seat tube is 73, so we are in agreement...so close its scary!
Forgive me if I'm doing that Grandmother and eggs thing, but you do have to get your body used to the un-natural position that we call riding a bike. I would say sore Trapezius is related to holding your head up so you can see where you are going....glasses are much worse for this than contacts! An exercise I do is to stand with feet comfortably apart, feet pointing forward, hands clasped by chin, elbows out level with shoulders, slowly rotate round as far as possible to look behind you both sides. Repeat, but with feet aligned so the toes point out "five minutes to one"....I find that how far I can turn is different both sides and depends on my foot alignment, ie degree of rotation in the knee joint can be the limiting factor....buy I'm old, and have had injuries.
Just had a bit of a Google, and these look OK, and even better, they aren't trying to sell you anything!
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/126.shtml
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/back-pain/LB00001_D
I expect you will find specific Trapezius stretches, too.

EDIT....if you are pushing back and sitting on the back of the saddle, then that's where you need to put the saddle!

rfryer
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby rfryer » 20 Apr 2013, 9:01am

If you're pushing back onto the saddle, you might consider lifting the nose at the same time as moving the saddle back?

Vorpal
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby Vorpal » 20 Apr 2013, 9:10am

samsbike wrote:I tend to drop my elbows and push back on the seat with my hands holding the top of the hoods if that makes sense.


You shouldn't have to push with your arms. I have to admit that I've never tried KOPS. I tend to just move the saddle around until it seems to be in the right place. That's a slightly differnt position for me on a more upright bike like my hybrid or tandem than on my road bike.

However, one of the criteria I use for whether I have found the right position is that I do *not* feel like I need push with arms, or put weight on them. That doesn't mean I never do. When I pedal hard, or climb a hill, I push with my arms as well.
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samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 20 Apr 2013, 2:04pm

I.think part of my apprehension of moving the saddle back is that I had it back most of last year and had all sorts of knee pain. This year with the more forward position the knee pain is not too bad and it's just the shoulder/ neck ache which I also had last year.

I am going to try next week with seat more forward.

Should I consider getting a steel fork like the one from the surly pacer or an uncut equilibrium carbon fork in? I know that sjs had some 330mm cannondale road forks.sometime ago. The advantage of the pacer fork is that they can be found relatively cheaply.

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531colin
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby 531colin » 20 Apr 2013, 2:44pm

Moving the saddle forward throws weight on your arms.
If the saddle and bars are about level now, I wouldn't go out and buy another set of forks just yet......what do you hope to gain?**
There are all sorts of reasons for knee pain...muscle imbalance, pedalling with your knees out rather than moving them straight up and down, just not having enough miles in your legs after a lousy winter.......can you describe the location of the pain, etc?
Where do you live? do you ride with anybody who could give an opinion on your position?,....is there a forum member near you?

** you can try one of these....http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/360632841939?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=63&ff19=0

samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 20 Apr 2013, 2:51pm

Colin despite the monster stem my bars are still around 4 cm lower than the seat.

The knee pain, from memory, was around the front of the knee and made putting weight ( when walking up.stairs) on it painful.

The seat has moved 5mm back and am am going to see how it goes. I am hoping that I can get to a pain free position. I do know that when I pedal I need to push with the weight on the inside of my foot and not on the outside. Also I try and keep my knees in, nearer the top tube.

I am not aware of anyone near Ruislip although I do come up to York occasionally for work, right near the station.

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531colin
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby 531colin » 20 Apr 2013, 2:58pm

Try one of those extenders I linked just now....you also need a few more headset spacers.
York to Harrogate is just a few stations on the local clockwork train, or I could meet you at an intervening station, I'm not too keen on the centre of York for cycling.
Sudden thought......don't extend a carbon steerer!!

samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 20 Apr 2013, 7:26pm

Colin, thanks for the offer I just may take you up on that if things don't improve.

I will post how I.get on.

Thanks

PH
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby PH » 20 Apr 2013, 7:52pm

Bike looks a bit small to me, but don't get too hung up about it, you don't look very relaxed on it, though that might be the unnatural setting. My three bikes are different sizes, 58. 60 & 61. Position is slightly different on each because they're used for different types of cycling, I'm comfortable on all three. I don't get the bars lining up with the hub thing at all, I'd have thought even if the position was identical the bikes geometry and rider position would dictate if that was the case.
Don't despair, I'm sure you'll get there, though I'd have gone for a proper fitting session before now, then gone back again and again until it was right. Mosquito Boutique, Ha! I called in with a couple of basic questions about a SOMA, they suggested looking on the website, didn't have a clue.

samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 23 Apr 2013, 9:39am

I tried the new position today, i.e. the seat about 5mm back and level.

It felt ok, an improvement because I am more or less use the tops more comfortably and its just a slightly more stretch to the hoods.

The weird bit was it really gave the muscles in the thigh on top of the knees a workout. I could feel them struggling. What is has meant is a slight ache in the knee on the top and front - would this be more down to non-use and a need to stretch them?

thanks

sam

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 23 Apr 2013, 10:47am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Can someone explain that If I mover the saddle forward or backwards the KOPS goes out the window :?:

Hi,
To clarify :-
The Scenario.
If I set my seat height then look at KOPS, it will probably be out.
So I adjust the saddle to get KOPS correct, forward or aft.
If you adjust the saddle forward or aft after setting seat height then, forward will reduce seat height and aft will increase seat height.
Likewise, I could adjust seat height and maintain forward / aft seat to get KOPS but the seat height would also be set for me :!:
So :- If I maintain KOPS and get my saddle height correct, then forward or aft seat position (virtual hip socket centre to Bottom Bracket, horizontal dimension will be set for me :!:
I cannot have KOPS, correct seat height AND play with forward / aft seat horizontal dimension :!:
Of course when looking at KOPS I could if I set seat height correct, and move saddle forward / aft but still maintain correct seat height, then just raise or lower my heel to try and line up with KOPS :?

SO how would you do it :?:
How do pro bike fitters do it :?:

If you move saddle forward or aft to get KOPS then this will dictate your seat height :!: Which affects you leg cycling mechanics / action...........
This is the crux of all bike setup.
Last edited by NATURAL ANKLING on 23 Apr 2013, 3:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
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meic
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby meic » 23 Apr 2013, 11:08am

then just raise or lower my heel to try and line up with KOPS :?


I think that the "rules" of KOPS is that your foot is kept level.

If you move saddle forward or aft to get KOPS they this will dictate your seat height


There is a (not always stated) assumption that the seatpost will be moved to keep the correct saddle height at the same time as moving for and aft. Which admittedly may take a few goes to get right.
Yma o Hyd

samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 23 Apr 2013, 11:09am

I thought that seat height is the adjustable variable.

Moving the seat forward, raises it, so you lower the seat and vice versa or have I totally misunderstood you NA?

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531colin
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby 531colin » 23 Apr 2013, 11:14am

Sam and NA....
If somebody crept into my bike shed in the middle of the night and moved all the saddles....some back 5mm, some forward 5mm....
I DONT THINK I WOULD NOTICE.......a 10mm difference in setback between bikes....or 5mm either way from "ideal"

I don't think seat setback is critical within 5mm......seat height may be critical within 5mm, but I don't think anything else is......bar height, bar reach, what-have-you.
I reckon I can tell between 170 and 175mm cranks, but lots of folk will ride either and not even know.

Sam...I really don't think 5mm shift will alter how you are using your leg muscles....conventional wisdom says if you sit on top of the pedals you are using the quads more, if you sit behind them you are using the hamstrings more....its probably an awful over-simplification, like "pain at front of knee, saddle too low, pain at back of knee, saddle too high"
However, some very simple things can make your knees more comfortable....stretching, and isometric straight-leg quads exercise......even if its just locking your knees out and tensing your quads in the lunch queue.

Have you been off the bike all winter?

BTW, pushing the seat back moves it further from the pedals, so its similar to raising it a tiny bit.