bike positioning help please

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samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 25 May 2013, 1:04pm

Hurumph after trying it out I got a lot of knee ache on top and around both knees. Also.for the first time I got knee pain on my left knee while riding. Oddly after focussing on my pedal stroke it went away. So I am thinking of moving the seat slightly forward.

The other annoyance is not being able to ride my brooks as I can't find a seatpost with enough layback.

So the searching carries on.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 25 May 2013, 1:21pm

Feet positioning
Seat height.
Reach.....are you a funny shape...........
Saddle setback and KOPS is Total RED HERING........................

Sorry this is a sticky so alls well :?
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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531colin
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby 531colin » 25 May 2013, 4:48pm

samsbike wrote:Hurumph after trying it out I got a lot of knee ache on top and around both knees. Also.for the first time I got knee pain on my left knee while riding. Oddly after focussing on my pedal stroke it went away. So I am thinking of moving the seat slightly forward.

The other annoyance is not being able to ride my brooks as I can't find a seatpost with enough layback.

So the searching carries on.


Seatposts with enough layback to use a Brooks on a frame with steep angles are a bit thin on the ground.
Knee aches and pains....if you can be absolutely specific, we may be able to help. ......muscle ache? joint pain? behind the knee cap? sharp pain/dull ache/it was sore when I finished, but went away in 2 hours? A pain that goes away while you are still riding isn't something I would give a second thought, but significant joint pain present 2 days after a ride could be a problem.
What sort of riding are you doing? As I remember you have a long commute, it makes a lot of sense to work up to something like that, get your body used to the exercise and the riding position. There isn't a bike or riding position that would enable me to go from nothing to commuting 30 odd miles and doing a days work as well.
Now we have light evenings, can you do say 3 rides of an hour duration every week, and work up that way?

samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 25 May 2013, 5:33pm

Hi Colin, the pain is right on top of the knee cap and if my knees were bent the pain is on the top half. It's not behind or on the sides.

It's a dull ache and definitely in the joint. The pain when riding was a stinging one on the lhs. I can put my fingers on the bone and around it. Once the ache hits it also becomes noticeable going up stairs. I am not pushing big gears.

The commute is about 16-18 miles but I struggle on the homeward leg due to the wind and slight gradient. I have been doing a couple of days a week and other than the general lack of fitness it's ok.

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531colin
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby 531colin » 25 May 2013, 6:50pm

Sam...buy this book...http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sports-Injuries-Self-Help-Vivian-Grisogono/dp/1905367287/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369503325&sr=1-3&keywords=vivian+grisogono
Its the best money I ever spent.
I think you are describing patello-femoral pain syndromehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patellofemoral_pain_syndrome, which is just about the most common "over use injury" among cyclists.....that's "over use" as in doing too much for your current level of fitness, not doing more miles a week than a round the world cyclist.
Certainly in the short term I think you would be very well advised to cut down the mileage, at least until your knees are pain-free. (Or until you get a diagnosis different from patello-femoral pain syndrome)
Can you, for example, commute one way on the bike and do the other half of the journey on public transport or by car?....I'd be aiming for 3 short, easy rides a week just to keep ticking over.....short and easy enough to keep you pain free.

samsbike
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby samsbike » 25 May 2013, 8:24pm

Colin thanks I will get it.

I just read some of the conditions and I do get the pain from staying in my seat too long etc. I also had it for most of last year.

What a weight off my mind, I was wondering what was causing it.

I can do a ride in and a train back so may try that for awhile, thanks again

Ps hopefully I have a seatpost sorted from BarryS

JohnW
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby JohnW » 25 May 2013, 10:59pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:
...........Saddle setback and KOPS is Total RED HERING........................



No it isn't!!!!

(don't you mean Herring?)

JohnW
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby JohnW » 25 May 2013, 11:06pm

samsbike wrote:
..........The other annoyance is not being able to ride my brooks as I can't find a seatpost with enough layback..............So the searching carries on.


..............absolutely - it's a perennial and recurring problem.

Colin has said (somewhere) that the problem is less likely to occur on frames built to the more relaxed angles - e.g. 72degrees - and my experience most certainly confirms that. I'm OK on 73 degrees, but I can't find a seatpin that puts a Brooks far enough back on a 74degree frame.

Colin - do you know - do the Spa saddles allow themselves to be slid further back on the seat pin? - it's just a guess, but my guess is that you'd know if anyone does. Bruce's photographs and quoted measurements suggest that it is so.

JohnW
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby JohnW » 25 May 2013, 11:12pm

Vorpal wrote:
JohnW wrote:Can I make a suggestion to the moderators, or whoever is responsible for these things, that this thread becomes a "permanent", or "sticky" or whatever those who know what they're talking about call it, as something worth hanging on to, and being readily accessible for future Forum members/users? These are questions which are asked so very frequently and a really valuable resource.


It has been added to the 'too good to lose' section viewforum.php?f=25


Thanks - may it go on expanding and enlightening for ever.........

LollyKat
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby LollyKat » 26 May 2013, 5:50pm

JohnW wrote:Colin - do you know - do the Spa saddles allow themselves to be slid further back on the seat pin? - it's just a guess, but my guess is that you'd know if anyone does. Bruce's photographs and quoted measurements suggest that it is so.


I'm not Colin :wink: but this thread should help.

JohnW
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby JohnW » 26 May 2013, 6:18pm

Thanks Lolly - it was me that put that thread on initially - with the question.

It does look as though the Spa saddles will sit significantly further back. I'll do a bit of measuring this evening.

Thanks again.

LollyKat
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby LollyKat » 26 May 2013, 11:30pm

I lose track of who has said what! :lol: :lol:

JohnW
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby JohnW » 26 May 2013, 11:51pm

..............and I often lose track of what I've said myself............. :? :oops: :roll:

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 27 May 2013, 1:25am

Hi,
First three images show saddle height maintained, but KOPS only lines up on 0.057M setback.
2013-05-26_233541.jpg
Click on image to see larger view

As you would expect, if the saddle setback (SADDLE NOSE) is reduced to 32MM but saddle height is maintained the the knee comes forward of the KOPS line.
Similarly if the saddle set back is extended to 82MM but saddle height is maintained then the knee moves behind the KOPS line.

In the next three images the KOPS line is maintained at all cost. Saddle set back is then adjusted to 32MM and 82MM respectivly.
2013-05-26_234208.jpg
Click on image to see larger view

If you observe the saddle height in each case you will see that it suffers as a result :?:
So you cannot maintain KOPS and then adjust the saddle setback without messing with saddle height :!:
Of course you could fiddle the foot and drop or raise your heel to fit the KOPS image.
A misnomer with KOPS is that the foot is ever flat or parallel with the ground, you may see a stationary image which depicts this but not a moving image, unless the cyclist is conscientiously dropping the heel.
This can happen when the cyclist wishes to stretch calf and hamstrings for physio or training reasons or to relieve strees in the quads.
You would have to do this conscientiously and it would not happen naturally, this is not ankling but dropping the heel further than you would normally do.
You must remember that the calf muscles hold the foot position and transfer the upper leg power, and do not activly propel (add power) to the power stroke.
One other way that the foot maybe parallel to the ground is if the cyclist does not wear stiff soled shoes, but trainers or sandals.
I did see some charity cyclists on Dartmoor at the weekend all but one of the four cyclist was wearing trainers and one was wearing what looked like plymsoles :? You can imagine the angle of the foot, almost complete reverse of the foots natural shape..................
Edited- Today I did see another reason for the foot to be parallel or even a negative (heel lower than toes) angle with the ground, the rider had the saddle typicaly extremely low, this will force the foot especially if soft shoes are worn to be at a negative angle with the ground. This is not something I am suggesting the OP will suffer from, or a typicaly similar experienced cyclist would be foul of.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

cycle tramp
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Re: bike positioning help please

Postby cycle tramp » 28 May 2013, 7:15pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:So you cannot maintain KOPS and then adjust the saddle setback without messing with saddle height :!:


Well, it may be possible, but perhaps to do so we would have to alter the length of the crank (which in turn also means messing with the saddle height), but if we consider KOPS to be all important for cycling comfort crank, length would be the one variable left, and in order to achieve KOPS we may have to use cranks of a differing length to that which we have been using. We've already been here with another thread, following Mr Burrows, and his idea that perhaps shorter cranks would lead to a) a better aerodynamic position b) ever-so-slightly lighter bicycles c) faster recovery rates d) more sales of 155mm cranks e) higher rates of 'spinning'.. and during that thread some cyclists commented that they found a slightly longer than usual crank lenght works for them, or a shorter crank length works for them... but supposing its not just about the crank length, but also crank length allowing perfect KOPS, for that cyclist.

(i have to admit that dispite suffering from knee discomfort..i've never worried with KOPS myself, tracing my knee discomfort to spending too much time kneeling in the garden weeding. Sometimes whilst cycling may highlight knee discomfort the cause of the discomfort is completely different).