Campag shifters and hubs

[Pickers]

Hi all,
First post on here so please be gentle!
My first question is about Campag front shifters - are they still ratcheted? I'm after a new 10sp set to run with a triple front and REALLY don't like or want an indexed front set up.
Secondly, is there a 135mm spaced rear hub that's cheaper or quieter than a Hope that will take a Campag cassette?

Cheers
P

[Brucey]

if you are not running indexed then there is no need to restrict yourself to a campag cassette; a shimano compatible one will work just fine, too. Much more choice of hubs. There are also such things as campag spaced shimano cassettes,and tweaks to cable mountings that make campag shifters/mechs run OK on shimano cassettes.

You can build a 135mm hub with a campag body on it but few manufacturers offer this as a stock item.

Campag ergos are all RH indexed and the LH control varies. It is complicated; there is powershift, ultrashift and original. They don't even all work the same as one another in the same model year.

cheers

[Mick F]

The RH Ergo is indexed of course, but the LH Ergo has never been indexed. The LH Ergos have undergone all sorts of variations as Brucey says. The LH Ergos vary in the amount of clicks per movement, that's all.

The best ones to get are "pre everything", and for that, you need to find some 2006 (or earlier) versions. They are much sought-after, so you'll be very lucky to find any ....... and I ain't parting with mine.

[niggle]

You could run a Shimano 8 speed cassette with 10 speed Ergos, or 9 speed if you use the Hubbub cable clamp mod (see "Shimergo" ) but you I think will need a Shiftmate to run a Shimano 10 speed cassette with 10 speed Ergos, i.e. this one: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/jtek-shiftma ... prod19048/ with a Shimano rear mech (quality 9 speed long cage MTB or 9 or 10 speed Road triple, i.e. medium cage, if it has enough capacity, 10 speed MTB cannot be used due to a different cable pull). Either that or some more involved engineering at the cable clamp.

Alternatively you can get a Campag spaced cassette that will fit a Shimano freehub, but only up to 28T (and you will need to use a suitable triple compatible Campag rear mech): http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/product/17 ... sette.html (the Camp index, Shim Spline variants half way down)

I believe re front shifting with a Shimano front mech it is best to avoid Powershift Ergos, Ultrashift is better apparently, more clicks I think, but on searching on-line I cannot find any Ultrashift 10 speed Ergos like the 2010 Veloce ones I bought last year. As Mick said the best would be the earlier Ergos with a lot of fine ratchet clicks, but as he also says you may have a long search then have to pay a premium. There has been copious previous discussion about all this on the forum and elsewhere.

The Chris Juden Shimergo article says, you may have issues trying to shift a Shimano road triple front mech with any modern Ergos (which can be cured with some fiddling with the cable clamping apparently), but a Shimano MTB front mech and triple chainset should be OK (I hope, that is the direction I am going for a Shimergo 8 speed touring bike build with 2010 Veloce 10 speed Ultrashift ergos, triple chainset and Shimano 8 speed cassette and MTB 9 speed rear and 8 speed front mechs).

EDIT: Cheapest 10 speed Ultrashift Ergos I could find: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Campagnolo-Re ... vi-content Ouch!

[mattsccm]

Its easy enough with out all the compromises.
I run nasty QS shifters. they seem to have 6 positions going up but 3 down. with a Campag triple chainset that's perfect. with a Stronglight one its damn near enough. A variety of Campag front mechs from Comp triple, through ancient Record to currently an unknown vintage or spec Centaur. All fine.
I believe that the QS shifters are the least useful of all regarding front shifting so I reckon almost anything else will do.
Like you I really don't like noisy hubs. Even my Record one is too much. A bike should be silent! One wheel has a Shimano hub with an Ambrosio Campag spaced cassette. Again fine although 28 teeth is the limit . I bet you could substitute a couple of Shimano sprockets if you wanted bigger ones. The tenths of a mm in sprocket thickness would probably mean bugger all to the shifting and even the lock ring would probably cope.
I guess Chris King might do a hub. but pricey.

[Pickers]

Thanks for your replies above. I'm quite happy with indexed shifting out back, I have a 2003 10sp set on another bike (not selling them either!) which will stay where they are.
I have a bit of a quandary with my tourer, and my wife's tourer.
Er indoors had a new frame last year that I built up with 9sp Campag left over from the demise of my 531 Holdsworth, this was a way to get her riding properly without too much money (she's really taken to it), the various parts had done a few miles and were due for some replacement. Unfortunately the gear shifter lever broke on this set (as in snapped off completely). I know Campag shifters can be repaired, I don't know if parts are available for fairly old 9sp levers.
Cue some swapping about. She now has Shimano shifters with Campag cassette,130mm hub and a Deore rear mech, works well but she doesn't like the levers. I now have a 9sp Campag rear lever with an old downtube lever for the front, with Shimano XT mech, 135mm hub and cassette. Again works ok surprisingly.
Except for the RH lever, the 9sp Campag set is pretty much worn out, so looking to change this for 10sp set as I need levers and a cassette anyway - just needs a rear mech as well; this will go on wifey's bike.
I have assumed that Shimano front STIs are all indexed - is this correct?

[Brucey]

shimano front stis are indeed indexed. They do have trim clicks, but this requires either luck or the right parts for them to work right. Maybe both.

You can get spares for a lot of older campag kit but you may have to do a fair bit of ringing around to find the right ones.

You may be interested to know that some shimano sti models have adjustable reach, which might improve them for your better half.

If she likes the thumb paddle on campag shifters, some of the lower end shimano ones (sora etc) used to be similar, maybe they could be worth looking at, although maybe 9s isn't an option with this style.

cheers

[niggle]

Er indoors had a new frame last year that I built up with 9sp Campag left over from the demise of my 531 Holdsworth, this was a way to get her riding properly without too much money (she's really taken to it), the various parts had done a few miles and were due for some replacement. Unfortunately the gear shifter lever broke on this set (as in snapped off completely). I know Campag shifters can be repaired, I don't know if parts are available for fairly old 9sp levers.

Some Campag spares here: http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/brand/campa ... UgZGVzY35+ though probably best to go to the Campag site, find out the part number, and search for that.

[De Sisti]

I run Campag 10s ergo levers with a Campag rear mech and rear wheel with Shimano hub/9s cassette.
Shifts perfectly. I have this combo on 3 bikes.

I also have a spare (un-used) Evolution 10s cassette which has Shimano splines and Campag spacing,
12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28.

[cycleruk]

Another Campag' supplier/repairer:-
http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk/camp ... cing.shtml
Also Mercian cycles do Campag' as Mick-F will tell you.

Older Campag does have the multi "click" left changer.
Q.S. is 6 up and 3 down but I only have mine on a "compact double".
Newish Campag, I believe, is different again but I don't know how?

I have used a 10 speed rear Shimano wheel/cassette in a 10 speed Campag' bike and it worked fine. Only concern was the rear derailleur came very close to the spokes.
I have 2 bikes with Shimergo set ups. Both are 8 speed triples with Shimano dérailleurs and Campag Ergo's.
Both are Veloce Ergos, one is a 10 speed right and the other is a 9 speed right. Both left shifters are the multi non-indexing types.
Again, from what I understand, some 9 speed Ergo's can be converted to 10 speed by changing the "ratchet". ??

[JohnW]

Do you know, there are so many threads on the Forum that highlight the problems and complications which are raising their ugly heads yet again on this thread.

With friction down-tube levers, everything is compatible with everything else - and there's a lot less money involved.

[gfk_velo]

Spares for all Campag Ergolevers regardless of vintage - Velotech Cycling Ltd., Campag's main UK Service Centre.

There are a very few parts that can't be had any more. Exceptions are:

Lever 1 - the brake lever, for very 1st generation Ergos - but there are a few of the second version of that brake lever around)
Lever 2 (the one behind the brake lever), Ergo version 1 - none to be had from the factory or from the regular UK wholesale trade but there are a few out there, if you conduct a careful search, yes for version 2 and UltraShift
Lever 3 (the thumb lever) apart from very early Ergos, these have changed only marginally and the more recent variations are available, as is the version for UtlraShift (which works on a totally different basis to older variations on ErgoPower.
Shift ratchets - 8s are getting harder to find, the factory are now out of stock.
Avanti 8s - no spares at all except "G" springs.

For UtraShift spares, these are not in the spares catalogues online as Campagnolo have followed the Shimano model and now supply bodies complete but Velotech buy and break down complete bodies to make loose spares available.

Powershift - to all intent and purpose the same internal as Escape. It works the same way and has many of the same vulnerabilities. Lever 2 does not appear to be so prone to failure resulting from abuse / mis-use though.

FDs - If you are using Campag LH levers, don't mix and match, you'll regret it.

FD Setup - The FDs have a specific movement arc that is tuned to the cable recovery in the lever - on a double, from the neutral position, FD as far left as it ever needs to go, to big ring and the mech as far right as it ever needs to go, you should have 3 clicks, equating to one full sweep of the LH lever 2. If you need to take a second bite, as it were, either the mech is wrong, your zero position for the FD or some other aspect of it's position or compatibility is wrong, or you don't have correct cable tension (and remember that that is influenced by cable guide, cable type, cleanliness & condition of outer and inner, as well as the cable adjuster). Don't discount chain-line and / or ring spacing, or indeed ring size & profile when thinking about compatibility, either.

When setting for a triple, an extra two clicks can be used (middle-to small sprockets trim position, big chainring position) but care is needed when shifting from middle to big ring to avoid the pressure-still-on-lever, gear-against-limit-screw scenario mentioned below:

Lever 2 failures - The reason (and this holds good for UltraShift too) is that the lever 2 fails by fracture at the top is usually multiple upshift action, or too strong an upshift action, with the FD coming up against the high limit screw before the lever sweep is completed. The FD can't move any further, the rider is still applying pressue to lever 2 and eventually, after repeat episodes, something gives.

All lever 2 failures are fixable, BTW, in all versions of ErgoPower except 1st generation, where it was & is very rare in any case.

Campag chainrings, correctly spaced and installed are a huge advantage - not all 3rd party rings have ramps and pins that work well with the inner shaping of all Campagnolo FD cages. Ditto a Campag chain whose outer plates are shaped to mate with the ramps and lift pins.

If the FD is correctly set and the kit looked after, the composite inner levers are durable, btw - we have examples here that have done 40 - 50,000 km to our certain knowledge, with no issues at all.

Triple compatibility - UltraShift is NOT triple compatible - I know it looks and feels like it should be, but it isn't. The only new-shape lever designed to be triple compatible is the LH lever supplied with Veloce 3 x 10 and Athena 3 x 11. Use a Campag chainset and the correct FD correctly mounted and it works very well indeed - again, play fast and loose with the rules & it won't work well, if at all.

Older-design Ergos - all the 2nd generation true Ergos are triple compatible - so the full range in 9 & 10s up until model year 2007, thereafter Record & Chorus (i.e. not all Escape)

Escape Ergos can work with triple but need to be set up correctly and with great care to do so - TBH, it was not a great solution and didn't work in every case.

We know it's deeply unfashionable to say this, but gear systems, whether they are Campag, Shimano, SRAM, FSA, Microshift are becoming increasingly system-based and to work well, with longevity, need to be used as systems. There are lots of workarounds that allow mixing and matching but given the fundamental differences in the way that the various manufacturers achieve indexing, as tolerances become tighter, materials get lighter and the systems themselves get more sophisticated, the opportunities to mix and match and to add third-party components into the system get less, if both function and durability are to be preserved. Set-up needs to be done with greater care and accuracy, too - lots of problems that we see doing event support can be rectified with just a little more care and accuracy in assembly and adjustment.

[Mick F]

Excellent bit of info.
Thank you!

FDs - If you are using Campag LH levers, don't mix and match, you'll regret it.

I run 2006 Chorus Ergos - non QS, but my FD is QS. I'm sure Campag state you can mix and match QS and non-QS ........ and I can state it works fine.

[JohnW]

Excellent bit of info.
Thank you!

FDs - If you are using Campag LH levers, don't mix and match, you'll regret it.

I run 2006 Chorus Ergos - non QS, but my FD is QS. I'm sure Campag state you can mix and match QS and non-QS ........ and I can state it works fine.

Yes - it is an excellent bit of info - but, with friction down-tube levers you don't need to know it. When block (or cassette) and chain wear out, you just buy another and put them on your bike. When you're thrown off your bike by a motorist, and break a brake lever, you just get another brake lever - or a pair even - for a fraction of the price of an ergo/STI lever, and no problems with searching a pair which are compatible with the rest of your ensemble.

Recently, a cycling colleague had to change to obtain lower gears. Admittedly the bike is 15+ years old, and had Shimano 7 speed cassette with very early STI levers but our LBS (who will turn heaven and earth to sort us out) couldn't get a block which was compatible with the levers; he trawled through the internet and also failed. It cost him - I think about £350 for a group-set (and that was economy end) to get mobile again. I know that's an extreme situation, butf he'd asked us - his cycling mates - before instead of after - we could have sorted him out with some band-on down-tube shifters and a pair of brake levers from spares buckets for free.

[Brucey]

I would argue that the LBS failed there; they should have been able to remove a (small, useless) cog from an 8s cassette and fit that.

£15 instead of £350.

cheers