Interesting new GPS

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Vantage
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby Vantage » 4 Sep 2013, 9:39am

honesty wrote:Que whatshisname talking about how good his unavailable, out of date, heavy, crap battery life motorbike specific Tom Tom is... ;)



Tears in my eyes from laughing so hard :mrgreen:
Bill


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hexhome
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby hexhome » 4 Sep 2013, 9:39am

OnYourRight wrote:The Byzantine system of buying Garmin maps, getting them onto the device, using them on your PC/Mac for trip planning, and then using them on the device itself, is so fantastically complicated that I have to assume Garmin constructed it out of a bunch of different teams and corporate acquisitions, each of which was barred from telling the others what it was up to. It’s very, very close to unusable – and I can use most things.


I just don't experience these problems. I use velomaps with either it's own installer or Basecamp to install/manage. Whilst Basecamp does take a little getting used to, it does the job very well IMHO.

geocycle
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby geocycle » 4 Sep 2013, 9:57am

Has anyone worked out if it will accept OS maps as per the edge 810 or are you stuck with the preloaded maps?

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honesty
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby honesty » 4 Sep 2013, 10:03am

It has a micro SD card slot so it should accept any maps, just the same as the 800/810. In fact I believe the maps you get with it are loaded on a micro SD card.

OnYourRight
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby OnYourRight » 4 Sep 2013, 10:15am

honesty wrote:I do think making it us AA batteries would have been a fantastic differentiator and a real alternative solution for the market. I can only think Garmin did not do this to stop it detracting from the walking GPS units that already do this.

Perhaps, but another reason might be that AA cells have some drawbacks, often overlooked by the ‘survivalist’ types who prefer them but well known to Garmin engineers.

For a start, AA cells weigh somewhere in the region of 3 × more than Li-ion batteries for a given energy capacity. They also take up much more volume per unit of energy stored, and packaging flexibility is further limited by the fixed shape of AA cells.

No AA cells work well in the cold, and some work extremely badly – and because they’re user-replaceable you can’t guarantee the user will buy cells that work well (which are typically expensive). The device can get very cold on a bike, since it’s far from body heat.

Good NiMH cells only remain good if they’re charged in a conditioning charger like the PowerEX Maha MH-C9000, which costs 50 quid. Mismatched cells, from simple chargers or careless cell management, invite problems like reversal of polarity. When the device doesn’t work the user sometimes blames the manufacturer.

There is no way for the device to display an accurate power meter with AA cells, even if the user has told it the type of cells being used (eg. NiMH or alkaline).

AA cells are also susceptible to dirt and corrosion of the contacts, and even momentary power loss caused by a physical shock that knocks the cell away from the contact for a split second. The eTrex has only two AA cells, but that’s still four contact points to go wrong. The eTrex has very strong spring pressure against the cells to reduce the risk of momentary power loss in the field, and to try to scrape crud off the contacts when the cells are inserted. But it’s still failure-prone compared to a soldered Li-ion battery pack.

AA cells are still suitable for some applications, but you can see why device manufacturers have been moving away from them.

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meic
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby meic » 4 Sep 2013, 10:38am

That may be true but not very important compared to things like,

The internal batteries do not last for a whole days riding and you would have to stop to recharge them or buy a dynamo and USB or a power monkey (which itself needs charging).

My batteries last for a full 300k and I can just slip another couple in my pocket (or back light) to do a 600k ride.
Reaching usable status is instant, no waiting for the battery to charge prior to riding.

I can see why the manufacturers prefer them but not so good for the users.

To be fair to Garmin they do still sell GPS's which take AA batteries for those of us that want them.

I dont see that the lack of a linear/reliable battery status reading counts for much, I know how long my batteries last and they are very consistent in this respect, so I can easily "interpret" what the reading means.
Yes still showing full capacity when 150k into the ride isnt uncommon but I still have more left than a newly charged 800 dont I? :mrgreen:
Yma o Hyd

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vsmith1
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby vsmith1 » 4 Sep 2013, 11:49am

I'm thinking about a such a device and read Chris' recommendation for eTrex in CTC's magazine a few times, so interested to read adverse comments here about eTrex.

So the Edge Touring is interesting, but I have a couple of questions:
[list=]Turn-by-turn - is this voice directed - like a car SatNav - I don't want to have to stare down at the screen unless necessary
Maps - possible to get the OSM maps with "proper" cycle routes as routes in the navigation - I don't want re-directing onto a (usually) busy road[/list]

How do the Bryton units compare?

I did try Bikehub app on my iPhone and other than battery lifetime, the pings when approaching a turn were a little disruptive; and and voice navigation was sometimes just a bit late (like 10m late). Are the Garmins/Brytons any better?

Thanks

OnYourRight
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby OnYourRight » 4 Sep 2013, 12:49pm

I pretty much agree with you, meic.

Contrariwise, I think AA cells are a liability for most users. Most eTrex 20/30 users, probably, have never ridden more than 15 hours without stopping for a break somewhere with mains power. Many of them would have been better served by a Li-ion battery.

Li-ion batteries come with a host of their own problems, but they’re better for most consumer electronics.

I think some of my unhappiness with the eTrex 20 was that I assumed it to be a friendly consumer-electronics device, since that’s how Garmin markets it, when in fact it’s a highly sophisticated bit of gear that requires a non-trivial learning effort and quite a lot of handholding in operation. If you go into it with the right expectations, it might live up to them (though even then you’d have to be generous or undiscerning, if you ask me).

For me, it was a disaster. Waiting ten minutes for a route to calculate was just ridiculous, I felt.

vsmith1 wrote:So the Edge Touring is interesting, but I have a couple of questions:
Turn-by-turn - is this voice directed - like a car SatNav - I don't want to have to stare down at the screen unless necessary

If the Edge Touring works like my Edge 800, which I strongly suspect, it doesn’t have voice guidance. The Edge 800 beeps at turns, alerting you to look down and alerting everyone in earshot to look up.

These devices don’t operate as slickly as in-car sat-nav units, which have large touchscreens, vastly fewer features, and a practically unlimited power supply to feed fast processors. The bike devices cost more and work worse. Try to get your hands on one before buying. Here’s an Amazon reviewer moaning about other eTrex problems – unfortunately I only spotted this after buying my eTrex 20.

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Audax67
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby Audax67 » 4 Sep 2013, 1:24pm

I've used an Etrex 20 for Audax and Diagonales, and loved it. I don't use the routing, though, just preloaded GPXes. My only complaint is that when it flips automatically from daytime colour settings to night-time it doesn't change the colour of the track. Seems trivial, but it flipped in the middle of Besançon last year in heavy traffic and the track disappeared.

It rattles a bit in the mount, too, but nothing like as much as my old Etrex Venture. Other than that I can get 24 hours out of a set of rechargeables, which is pretty good. Haven't done a full 24-hr stint with it yet, though, but I did do an 18-hr one last year.
Have we got time for another cuppa?

NewHorizon
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby NewHorizon » 4 Sep 2013, 1:38pm

Read this guys comments - he's helping Garmin with feedback.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/08/garm ... puter.html

His reviews are so exhaustive, its exhausting. The forthcoming Bryton Rider 60, which should be available this month, has all of the Touring and more, inc bluetooth and optional OS maps (in UK at least). No prices yet though. Having read so many bad things about Garmin software and support, I'm very reluctant to buy anything of theirs, even though this Touring looks to be the sort of thing I'd use. Hence my interest in the Bryton. Had a SatMap once - truly dreadful! Wiggle were good enough to refund my money so nothing actually lost save some sanity.
Last edited by NewHorizon on 4 Sep 2013, 1:53pm, edited 1 time in total.

freeflow
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby freeflow » 4 Sep 2013, 1:49pm

Just to pick up on the point about soldered lithium cells. Yes, the connections to the battery may be soldered, but if the design of the Garmin 800 or 810 is anything like the Edge 305 then the connection between the battery and the electronics may be a number of flimsy spring loaded pins. This was the cause of Edge205/305 and possibly later models suffering from turning off when riding over a rough surface 18 months or so after purchase.

I currently have a Bryton 50 which works extremely well and has allowed me to navigate routes for upto 11 hours before running out of juice. The thing I hate about bryton is the awful website that you MUST use to upload and download routes and ride data.

I'm currently investigating ipbike, an android app that seems to do most things I want (except turn by turn instructions). I have it running on a Sony Xperia Arc S that I picked up for £45 (a bit battered but usable) so that I can also use all my ANT+ sensors. Ipbike has the ability to download maps so you can run in offline mode. If I want to do a very long ride than I'd be perfectly happy to have a small cross bar bag to hold my 20,000 mah portable charger.

And yes, I haven't yet investigated fully the ability to fully waterproof but the Topeak Bike Smartphone holders are a step in the right direction.

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 4 Sep 2013, 1:53pm

The suggestion is that the Edge Touring actually has OpenStreetMap-based maps as standard. I suspect we might hear more about that after this weekend...
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

NewHorizon
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby NewHorizon » 4 Sep 2013, 2:00pm

Yes, Rainmaker confirms 'Garmin has pre-loaded the unit with free maps from OpenStreetMap'. I'd like to know if OS maps can be used - they're available for the 810 on a card, so it _should_ be possible.

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vsmith1
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby vsmith1 » 4 Sep 2013, 3:50pm

Thanks for the replies. I was really interested in the routing and turn-by-turn. I suppose I could cope with just an alert and look at the screen before making the turn. But the eTrex experiences (thanks to the Amazon link) seem to make it abysmal. From the planning I've done using cycle tracks etc. then I reckon the routes I am planning to take are difficult - which is why I'd like a turn-by-turn. The country lane and road parts are fairly simple. I suffered some navigational issues recently where I missed a turn and had to make e a detour.

I had read the rainmaker review. It didn't say about the turn-by-turn. I already have a ANT+ cycle computer (Bontrager) with sped and HRM, temp and Altitude so I really am not bothered about that. This would make the Edge Touring (standard) Ok for me. I will use for my forthcoming trip - that's what I'll use for the complex parts of my tour - with my iPhone and its apps (Bikehub, CycleStreet, MapMyRide, etc.). But the battery life is not so good - even after turning off WiFi, BT, notifications, and the screen - hence the voice alerts are so useful.

Bryton have a new model coming (the 60) and Garmin have these two models. So I can wait until some reviews come out.

geocycle
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Re: Interesting new GPS

Postby geocycle » 4 Sep 2013, 4:22pm

I'm curious about the idea that garmin perceive a niche. I certainly am interested in principle in something that doesn't measure my 'performance' (that's not why I ride a bike, and the figures would be rubbish anyway... ) but I do like to know how far, how high and record where I have cycled as well as being able to follow a route and modify it on the fly. I do most of this already on a combination of my phone GPS, cateye, memory map and with paper maps so it would need to be at a competitive price to make it worthwhile getting a dedicated gizmo. There is a big touring market in Germany, Netherlands, Denmark etc so this may be the target area. If the market price is realistic and reviews favorable, I'd be interested, and also in comparing it to the much trailed Bryton rider 60. The battery thing isn't a problem for me as I cannot imagine cycling for more than 12h in one go and I have a dynamo charger.