adapting tourer for load: discs hubs lights racks shoes bars

[latequartet]

I have bought a Vernon Barker frame (Throm tubing) from a recycling cycle place, for Dan, an independent bike rebuilder to work on for me. What I need to do is make some clear decisions and fairly quickly. Comments / advice on all of these would be appreciated. I'm trying to design a bike that I'll be using for 20 years so that the initial cost is less of a worry than the long-term return.

Disc brakes: I am planning a total weight of up to 175kg (including, at times, children / FollowMeTandem / Yepp bike-seat / trailer / panniers / double bass etc.!) ... I have read all the pro/cons of discs over y-brakes / cantis, rather I'm look for advice on
- how easy it is, day to day, to have the discs running entirely silently (without being an expert or going to a bike shop), this is my main worry;
- are there issues with the load bearing ability of the front forks, I know Dan can fix it, but what is the issue here?

Hubs I am wondering about cheaper and replace ever 4-6 years (and even good cantis/y-brakes) versus discs and life-long wheels, I'm favouring the second option at the moment. All the same, two questions
- what do you think about a Hope hub on the rear and a Sonor hub dynamo on the front, I'm think that's cost me £500 (including build cost just £20 per wheel). Would they really last me 20 years?
- LEDs versus dynamo hub (thinking Sonor), obviously I could just throw away LEDs every 2 years (or lose them) but I do want dynamo front and back (with stand-light) ... what's got longevity built into the design?

Racks: I'm going to have a rear rack built-in / onto the frame. I'm certain about this, I've been offered a decent price, it just makes it tidy with the link for the FollowMe and the three different trailers I'll be using for different jobs (Chariot/CarryFreedom/an old thing). It also keeps things tidy at the back. Front rack, I feel stumped. What I'm not sure about is:
- for the back, do I have a double set of horizontal bars up top, one for bags, the other to perch top luggage on (and to clip a Yepp bike seat into an Easyfit window), I like the idea, it doesn't look as neat, but it does create options;
- do I have a piece of board on the top of the rear, so it can become a seat when the children are older ... stylish or odd, I don't know?
- front rack, I think that the pricey racks at the £100 don't really bring me much benefit, I just wanted a top bag as well as two panniers, but don't plan to put loads of weight up front, just have options for hanging 3 things there, thoughts?

Shoes, I liked to use my local shoe-maker and have a leather shoe made with a bit of ankle support and have some Retrofitz inserted by her ... but is this just too untested an idea, I have read reviews, but I don't know (I've only ever used toe-clips to date and find remembering to have the right shoes in the right place day by day hard to stay organized on, so I'm a bit worried about the whole idea). As to pedals I just don't know and don't have any idea?

Finally, bars. I've been on drops for 30 years (but have a dutch shopper and enjoy the sit-up-and-beg). I want to go for flats, have looked at Thorn's 18 degree sweep back. Puzzled about butterfly shapes. I just know I want to maintain an open shape but to be able to have at least two positions, ideally three I can regularly use. The key thing is I do a lot of looking behind (children. load, even long load with a double bass) so I want to be relaxed up front. I only know about bar-end shifters too and cannot see what will be the most ergonomically enjoyable way to sit-up,relax and enjoy the ride. Thoughts would be much appreciated.

[Brucey]

Hope hubs are very nice but I doubt very much that one will last 20 years. It will crack well before then if you use it year round because they can suffer from stress corrosion cracking, certainly when exposed to winter road salt, and sometimes without.

I can't comment on many of your choices but...

Columbus Thron is IIRC quite a lightweight tubeset, only a few oz heavier than 531C. I would not choose this as the starting point for a touring bike build, not for one with a 175kg load envisaged.

Having racks built in (especially on a CrMo frame) is madness really. Racks break, get bent, you want a different one... and so it goes on. Bolt on ones are very good and you can take them off when you need to. If you want it to look neat why not just get steel bolt-on ones (e.g..tubus), adapt them to your purpose if needs be and then have them painted to match?

A lightweight frameset/tubeset likewise wouldn't be my favoured starting point for fitting disc brakes. If it doesn't have enough clearance for fat tyres, go find another frame, or think about different sized wheels in that frame (and all the knock-ons that might bring...).

If the frame is as lightweight as I suspect (I'm thinking ~2.1kg for the frame without the fork), but has reasonable clearances, I'd suggest looking at cantis or V brakes and using rims with a ceramic coating on them. These will last for ever if you don't prang the wheels. I wouldn't carry more than ~20kg luggage or about 120kg all up on a lightweight frame.

Hubs of any kind (even if they don't break) will only last if you look after them which means servicing the bearings from time to time. With a few exceptions spare parts are not widely available for hubs that were in manufacture 20 years ago; it is called 'progress' or something, apparently....

cheers

[531colin]

Usual advice from me.........throw it together with whatever parts you have knocking around and see how it rides.

Until you have actually ridden the thing, its all just talk.............whats to say its not full-on race geometry, and will handle like a milking stool with panniers on, let alone a wriggly kid in a seat.......... will it take tyres bigger than 23mm with mudguards?

Vernon Baker might tell you the geometry if you give him the frame number.

As for disc brakes, you can be fairly sure the forks are too light to take a disc....and all that "Dan", or anybody else can do about that is fit new forks.....so you might be looking for disc-ready forks with 1" steerer, apart form all the usual complications of fork offset and axle to crown length....of course, you might decide to go for a longer fork to increase the trail a bit.......

I understand that Shimano have complicated it a bit recently, but the good old LX hubs would go for a very long time if you set the bearings properly and drilled them to inject grease.

If it is a race-geometry frame, the handling might be interesting with flat bars, where little of your weight is on the front wheel.

[latequartet]

Thanks Brucey, so much for your feedback /comments, all of which is much appreciated. I was excited to get an handbuilt frame with good leg length (64cm downtube) but not too long going forward, since I'm 6ft 3, but I'm hearing that, from your point of view I might have to review what my starting point is. That's why I've posted because I'm excited but nervous as well and do not want to back a decision that doesn't hold water.

When I say 175kg, that's up to this maximum: 85kg for me; 15kg for the bike itself and about 12kg on the front in bags, 15kgs on the back, plus 5kg bike seat and 12kg person it's 144kg with a tow weight of 30kg max, I imagine your comment on what frame to start with might be similar, though? It is Columbus Thron. So it's about 20% of your maximum of 120kg, but the idea was to put strengthening into the frame, especially at the back (I'm not sure what you'd call it, but extra struts) ... does that make more sense?

I imagine using the bike at 60% of full load (just me and some stuff or one child) for most of the time say 1700 miles a year, getting over 75% load for just 300-600 miles on top of that.

So having the racks built in doesn't mean they'll not still be vulnerable to bending / warping etc. hmmm, I was guessing they'd be a lot stronger than a bought rack. I wanted extra length so I can put some small panniers on behind a child seat, you see.

Ceramic rims! That sounds really interesting, with v-brakes, I just do find that more appealing in a number of ways (feel like I know how to adjust canti/v-brakes when on the road, don't feel interested to learn how to look after discs).

Hope Hubs won't last forever either, so what's a better 'budget-buy' that will deal with the payload and where the rims aren't going to need to be replaced by brake-ing with loads on grubby urban roads?

[latequartet]

Thanks 531Colin too, that's really helpful feedback ... I can easily do what you say, because I'm trying to upgrade from an Orbit (Malaysian frame) because it's not coping with the loads I'm putting on it, so I guess you're suggesting that I just move everything across and see how it goes with some weight on it? I like your idea. I also appreciate your view on a disc on Vernon Barker CroMo forks, I was worried.

[horizon]

I have bought a Vernon Barker frame (Throm tubing) from a recycling cycle place, for Dan, an independent bike rebuilder to work on for me. What I need to do is make some clear decisions and fairly quickly. Comments / advice on all of these would be appreciated. I'm trying to design a bike that I'll be using for 20 years so that the initial cost is less of a worry than the long-term return.

Thoughts would be much appreciated.

You are welcome to try (to design a bike) but I doubt that you need be in such a hurry. You need to start off with a good frame (Vernon Barker is a good frame builder by all accounts but perhaps ask him what he intended this particular frame for). And a good frame could mean an older MTB frame for 26" wheels. You can then try out different components to suit. The great thing about UK bikes is that most of the accessories (racks, lights, bags, trailers etc) come off so you can start off with one thing and change it later: by building a 20 year bike (only unridden bikes last for 20 years) you throw this advantage completely away.

I think what you are trying to do (build a really capable, load carrying, utility bike) is admirable - the way you are going about it is frankly IMV wrong.

[531colin]

I've got a couple of Orbits, from maybe about 15 years back, the firm was in a strange sort of yard in Sheffield, it was steep and rough enough to make a good test track.....the frames are light-ish but this is before the frames were Malaysian, I think. Which Orbit is it you have?
I have just seen you are in S. Yorkshire, I'm going to alert a pal of mine to this thread.

[Brucey]

FWIW I agree with Colin, especially if you have all the bits there already; building it up and seeing what it is like makes plenty of sense.

Colin's suggestion of LX hubs is pretty much what I'd go for too, or failing that, one of the older XT models (with a steel rear axle). If you look after them they will last 20 years, and if you don't they have not cost a king's ransom.

I'd suggest having an experiment with the rear carrier arrangements before having something special built, too. And even when that is done, I'd still have it as a bolt-on rather than built-in as it were. BTW you can have the rear carrier as stiff as you like, but if the main frame triangle is a little flexible, the whole bike may feel more than a touch noodly when loaded up.

cheers

[531colin]

....................... but the idea was to put strengthening into the frame, especially at the back (I'm not sure what you'd call it, but extra struts) ... does that make more sense?.................

Sorry, but no.
Stiffness in a tube comes from a big diameter.....stiffness increases as something like the cube of the diameter.
Adding an extra (thin) tube will do very little....you can make a stiff structure out of thin tubes by building a space-frame (Warren girder) but that's about it.

[meic]

Thanks Brucey, so much for your feedback /comments, all of which is much appreciated. I was excited to get an handbuilt frame with good leg length (64cm downtube) but not too long going forward, since I'm 6ft 3, but I'm hearing that, from your point of view I might have to review what my starting point is. That's why I've posted because I'm excited but nervous as well and do not want to back a decision that doesn't hold water.

When I say 175kg, that's up to this maximum: 85kg for me; 15kg for the bike itself and about 12kg on the front in bags, 15kgs on the back, plus 5kg bike seat and 12kg person it's 144kg with a tow weight of 30kg max, I imagine your comment on what frame to start with might be similar, though? It is Columbus Thron. So it's about 20% of your maximum of 120kg, but the idea was to put strengthening into the frame, especially at the back (I'm not sure what you'd call it, but extra struts) ... does that make more sense?

I imagine using the bike at 60% of full load (just me and some stuff or one child) for most of the time say 1700 miles a year, getting over 75% load for just 300-600 miles on top of that.

So having the racks built in doesn't mean they'll not still be vulnerable to bending / warping etc. hmmm, I was guessing they'd be a lot stronger than a bought rack. I wanted extra length so I can put some small panniers on behind a child seat, you see.

Ceramic rims! That sounds really interesting, with v-brakes, I just do find that more appealing in a number of ways (feel like I know how to adjust canti/v-brakes when on the road, don't feel interested to learn how to look after discs).

Hope Hubs won't last forever either, so what's a better 'budget-buy' that will deal with the payload and where the rims aren't going to need to be replaced by brake-ing with loads on grubby urban roads?

Even without the extra load, I hope you have learned how to put your leg in contact with the toptube to stop a fit of resonance when it occurs.

That is quite a lot of weight that you intend to subject the bike to, the trailer will not count to the effects of the all up weight on handling, fortunately.

When I saw your original post saying 175Kg, I was reminded of the fact that my large BMW 1,000cc touring motorcycle has an allowed "load" of only 200Kg.

[latequartet]

531Colin / Horizon / Brucey / Meic: I'm listening very carefully, I can move all my Orbit contents straight onto the Vernon Butler and see how it rides and check the geometry with VB, thanks for the advice.

Yes, 531 Colin, Orbit were still in the yard up the City Road when I bought it (2003 model, Ventura). Thanks for taking an interest.

Meic, what's a 'fit of resonance' and what does putting your leg on the top tube do, stop it?

So I'm starting to imagine that I could just use the Vernon Butler to upgrade from my Malaysian Orbit frame and I just keep that as my commuter / light ride bike.

If I do that, what about a load bike, starting from scratch. I am happy to recycle things and I'd be glad to do adapting / customizing with Dan fairly economically (but couldn't do it myself) ... what do you suggest for my needs, or would you say 'buy off the peg'?

[meic]

Two threads to have a look at about this infliction

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47158&hilit=tank+slapper&start=30

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=67770&hilit=jelly+steel

I havent found CJs bit about it but it was large, steel, lightweight frames ridden by tall, heavy riders.

[andrewjoseph]

My wife and I have had a hope mtb rear hub on our bikes for over 10 years, hers sees decent rough riding miles a year (~1500 km) in all weathers, mine does about 6000km. Hers is still going strong, I've just had a new hope hub rear wheel.

I put hope disk hubs on our tourers, over 3 years old and not needed a service yet.

Re: silent disk brakes, not sure if it's doable due to the rotor warping slightly nearly all the time. Used to the sound of grit on the pads when mtb-ing so a bit of a tinkle on our road/Tourer is not an issue. The braking performance is the most important.

I'm planning on getting trp spyre calipers as they have slightly better rotor clearance due to both pads moving. I was also interested in carbon rotors that don't warp, but still unsure on the ones available due to conflicting experience on braking power.

Also not sure about hydraulic for touring, on the mtb I've never had a problem, but steep descents are usually short and shallow descents don't need hard braking. Long descents with a heavy load may overcook things.

[andyh2]

I'll pick up on the handlebar shape and propose my usual recommendation pictured here;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24734759@N ... 668146223/
on a 25" framed old 10 speed Galaxy. It gives several comfortable positions.

I'm afraid I'm going to agree with other contributors. Great idea to have a bike that can carry luggage and children and pull loads on trailers and wonderful to be creative about this, but thankfully others have gone before and worked out what does and does not work.

For carrying children, especially as they get a bit bigger a "long tail" bike is great. The extra wheelbase distributes the weight better between the wheels and makes for much more stable handling with bigger loads. I've built up and used 3 Xtracycle attachments, which were good, but I found a Yuba Mundo (which will take 200kg of passengers and luggage + rider) more stable for bigger loads. To carry that weight with stability and safety the tubing is massive compared to a standard bike and the chainstays about an extra 15" longer than standard.

I currently use a rigid MTB (On-one Inbred) for commuting, shopping and trailer pulling, including a Pashley U + 2 trailer bike for 2 children. It works well but it would be better if it had touring bike length chainstays and a lower bottom bracket for easier slow stopping and setting off with a load.

In your position I'd probably build up the VB as a solo for myself and try it out. It might be fine with ordinary loads and could pull a trailer. And then look out for a second hand long tail bike for child carrying and shopping duties. Kona Ute or MinUte or Yuba Mundo or Boda Boda and Surly Big Dummy would all be candidates or maybe one of the Dutch bike style options.

[mattsccm]

I am going to be blunt.
Choose another bike more suited to your needs. It will be cheaper and less grief than messing about modifying something. Yes you can do it, I do all sorts of daft things with unsuitable kit but that's the point of the exercise, not to get a working bike.