Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

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The Borg
Posts: 12
Joined: 10 Feb 2012, 11:15am

Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby The Borg » 25 Oct 2013, 11:53am

HI, my old Raleigh touring bike has Weiman 610 centre pulls. After 25ish years they're a bit worn out now. Wheel size on the bike has changed from 27's to 700c's and the brake shoes are set at the bottom of the calipers.

I've tried to measure the current drop from centre of securing bolt to the centre of the rim and seems about 57-60 mm -ish.

Anyone replaced these brakes and what size drope do I need? ( also with a nut fitting )

thanks

tatanab
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Joined: 8 Feb 2007, 12:37pm

Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby tatanab » 25 Oct 2013, 12:37pm


Dynamite_funk
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Joined: 2 Nov 2011, 9:10am

Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby Dynamite_funk » 25 Oct 2013, 12:48pm

Woah, that IS a long drop! :P

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby Brucey » 25 Oct 2013, 12:50pm

you may wish to measure the rear caliper separately from the front; the rear was often specced as a '750' model on bikes with a '610' model front.

I have a slight weakness for these brakes; I think they are somewhat underrated. If you want them to work well with modern (skinnier) rims, I have found that it helps to use 'V' type blocks with (usually) as many bolt spacers as can be fitted between the arm and the brake pad. This works because the straddle wire is then flatter when the brake is working, which gives a higher MA to the brake caliper.

BTW these brakes also reward a few minutes spent with the solvol polish by coming up very nicely.

With a little TLC and careful setup like this, these brakes have rightly escaped 'upgrade fever' in many cases.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

pete75
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Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby pete75 » 25 Oct 2013, 1:35pm

Brucey wrote:you may wish to measure the rear caliper separately from the front; the rear was often specced as a '750' model on bikes with a '610' model front.

I have a slight weakness for these brakes; I think they are somewhat underrated. If you want them to work well with modern (skinnier) rims, I have found that it helps to use 'V' type blocks with (usually) as many bolt spacers as can be fitted between the arm and the brake pad. This works because the straddle wire is then flatter when the brake is working, which gives a higher MA to the brake caliper.

BTW these brakes also reward a few minutes spent with the solvol polish by coming up very nicely.

With a little TLC and careful setup like this, these brakes have rightly escaped 'upgrade fever' in many cases.

cheers


+1 . They look good too. A dismantle clean and lubrication wouldn't be amiss and they'll polish up well while you have them apart.
Fibrax do Weinman style pads in modern material which I've found to work well. They come in red as well as black. http://www.winstanleysbikes.co.uk/produ ... ake_Blocks

markfh
Posts: 210
Joined: 9 Sep 2013, 5:35pm
Location: Suffolk

Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby markfh » 25 Oct 2013, 1:36pm

Another alternative is the Tektro R559 which has a "quick release" which allows easy wheel changing if you don't have such a feature on your brake levers. SJS stock the Nut Fitting variant (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tektro-tektro-r559-caliper-brake-55-73-mm-very-deep-drop-nut-fitting-prod24459/). There are also some other Tektro models which don't have such a deep drop if you don't need such a deep drop although you will need to check that they are available in Nut Fitting. As noted by Brucey quite often the rear brakes were "750's" which were a deeper drop variant than the "610's".

I changed a Wiemann 610/750 combination to Tektro R559s earlier in the year on a bike that had also been changed from 27" to 700C wheels and the brake pads on the rear are considerably further down the slots than those on the front although still within limits. I could possibly have used a shorter drop model on the front (instead of the 610's) but it was easier/cheaper to get a set.

Ross K
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Joined: 25 Oct 2013, 8:14pm

Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby Ross K » 25 Oct 2013, 8:24pm

My old 531 frame is in service as winter bike n+1 and originally had 27" and later 700c.

The Weinmann centre pulls were just awful, even with Koolstop salmons in place. I too got Tektro R559 (extra deep drop) and like the above chap I found that in hindsight maybe I could have got away with Tektro R539 as the pads are quite a way up the slots.

However, I'm glad I got the 559s! I use Tektro R539s on my (modern) winter bike and they are very poor even with good pads. The R559s are for some reason (maybe the extra leverage of the longer caliper arms) way superior to the R539s, so from me at least they come highly recommended.

In contrast to the old Weinmanns, my braking has gone from "Oh my God I'm not gonna stop!!" to fairly close to the superb braking power of my dry bike with its Ultegra 6700 brakes.

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speedsixdave
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Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby speedsixdave » 25 Oct 2013, 9:10pm

markfh wrote:I changed a Wiemann 610/750 combination to Tektro R559s earlier in the year on a bike that had also been changed from 27" to 700C wheels


And how was it? Better? Worse? No apparent difference? And what levers were you using?

Wondering about this myself.
Big wheels good, small wheels better.
Two saddles best!

Brucey
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Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby Brucey » 25 Oct 2013, 10:39pm

Ross K wrote:... I too got Tektro R559 (extra deep drop) and like the above chap I found that in hindsight maybe I could have got away with Tektro R539 as the pads are quite a way up the slots.

However, I'm glad I got the 559s! I use Tektro R539s on my (modern) winter bike and they are very poor even with good pads.


If you measure cable pull vs pad movement (when the pads are set in the middle of the slots) with both calipers you may well find that you get similar numbers with R539s as with R559s, i.e. the caliper MA is nominally the same, despite the longer reach; the arms are wider as well as longer.

However setting the pads higher up in the slots always increases the MA with DP calipers and likewise dropping them always reduces it. So R539s with the pads at the bottom of the slots may be about 30% worse MA than R559s with the pads at the top of the slots.

As I mentioned in an earlier post the MA of Weinmann centre-pull calipers varies strongly through the travel; the highest MA is with wide brake blocks on wide rims (low straddle) and the lowest MA is with narrow brake blocks on narrow rims (high straddle). The difference here is huge, maybe +50% better in the former case. The other thing is that the Weinmann calipers are of course designed to work with Weinmann levers; these pull less cable than many more modern levers, so the latter will make the overall system MA rather low. With the wrong setup and the wrong levers, Weinmann centre pulls can feel rather weak. I do not think they are bad brakes, just misunderstood... :roll: :wink:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ross K
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Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby Ross K » 26 Oct 2013, 6:32am

Brucey wrote:
Ross K wrote:... I too got Tektro R559 (extra deep drop) and like the above chap I found that in hindsight maybe I could have got away with Tektro R539 as the pads are quite a way up the slots.

However, I'm glad I got the 559s! I use Tektro R539s on my (modern) winter bike and they are very poor even with good pads.


If you measure cable pull vs pad movement (when the pads are set in the middle of the slots) with both calipers you may well find that you get similar numbers with R539s as with R559s, i.e. the caliper MA is nominally the same, despite the longer reach; the arms are wider as well as longer.

However setting the pads higher up in the slots always increases the MA with DP calipers and likewise dropping them always reduces it. So R539s with the pads at the bottom of the slots may be about 30% worse MA than R559s with the pads at the top of the slots.

As I mentioned in an earlier post the MA of Weinmann centre-pull calipers varies strongly through the travel; the highest MA is with wide brake blocks on wide rims (low straddle) and the lowest MA is with narrow brake blocks on narrow rims (high straddle). The difference here is huge, maybe +50% better in the former case. The other thing is that the Weinmann calipers are of course designed to work with Weinmann levers; these pull less cable than many more modern levers, so the latter will make the overall system MA rather low. With the wrong setup and the wrong levers, Weinmann centre pulls can feel rather weak. I do not think they are bad brakes, just misunderstood... :roll: :wink:

cheers


That's really interesting, I learn something new every day! If I recall correctly, the Weinmanns had the pads at the ends of the slots (front brakes) so that would concur with your explanation. My levers are old Shimano 600 with original MA40 rims. Whatever the reasons, the Weinmanns on my set up were awful and the Tektros are very good, wet or dry.

Cheers.

MikeF
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Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby MikeF » 27 Oct 2013, 10:15pm

I find black Koolstop Eagle2 (or Supra 2) work fine in the Weinmann's, but then perhaps my 9 and 1/2 stone doesn't need so much stopping power. :wink: ...and they are better than the original type of brake blocks.
Brucey Very interesting point about mechanical advantage and slot height. I wonder if I've set them higher in the slots than the originals, which were pretty inflexible regarding position.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

ukdodger
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Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby ukdodger » 27 Oct 2013, 11:25pm

tatanab wrote:These should do you nicely. http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... _-_Caliper


I agree. They're a good caliper too. They also have to benefit of being the only (front) caliper that has a cable entry on the left (facing forward) meaning the cable doesnt cross the frame leaving a sharp bend where it enters the caliper.

Ant
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 2:05pm

Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby Ant » 29 Oct 2013, 1:12pm

+1 for the Alhongas. I fitted a pair to an old raleigh touring bike to replace the weinmann centre pulls. No amount of fettling by my very good LBS man could make the Weinmann brakes anything more than terrible. The Alhongas were a massive improvement, look appropriate and are dirt cheap.

Brucey
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Re: Replacing Weimann 610 centre pulls

Postby Brucey » 29 Oct 2013, 1:32pm

Ant wrote:.... to an old raleigh touring bike to replace the weinmann centre pulls. No amount of fettling by my very good LBS man could make the Weinmann brakes anything more than terrible...


ay details of the setup (levers, cables, brake blocks, brake block width, rim width, straddle height) and what was actually tried en route?

cheers
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