custom made frame vs off the peg

[martinn]

Having read this, and the other thread on a similar vein, I am more confused than ever
It would appear that in order to get the best out of a custom frame I need to really know what I want, which is in itself sensible, however, the more I read, the more I see the gaping holes in my knowledge. I will try the KOPS formula, and see if this makes any difference, on the previous bike (19" hybrid I was never comfortable) on my "new" bike, 22.5" frame Dawes Galaxy, I have 110mm stem, and the saddle as far back as it will go, and 5" of seat post showing and its OK, most of the time.
Reading all the other info would it make much difference having a +3" Ape index? i also have a 33" inside leg (Book to floor method).

So what difference does a sloping top tube makes as compared with a straight top tube, and what difference does the angle make?

The other conclusion I am moving towards is the total cost of the bike. One of the underlying rational behind the bike was to have the spec that I would choose for the wheels, chainset cassette etc etc, as opposed to changing them when they wear out, this itself takes up a significant cost.
So the choice between a made to measure and off the peg of the same material using my best estimates of component price, adds about 20% onto the total cost of the bike.

Many thanks
life would be simple if there was less choice !

Martin

[Brucey]

If it helps any, a common pattern is that someone starts with one bike, works hard to get themselves comfy on that, then buys another, and gets comfy on that, maybe notices some other things that are different from the first one that they were not expecting, and then goes out and buys a third bike, OTP or custom, that embodies all the best things learned from the previous bikes.

A good framebuilder will be able to interpret your likes and dislikes from previous bikes, and suggest any proposed changes to your riding position are trialled on (say) your current bike before the design is set in stone (well, steel or Ti actually).

A good number of people just go to a framebuilder and get themselves fitted up (OTP or custom accordingly) and don't worry about the details; only if there is a misunderstanding (or indeed a major change of heart about riding position, purpose etc) do things tend to go wrong.

If you know what you are doing (or just plain aren't at all fussy) you don't necessarily need to spend a fortune to get a well-fitting bike. But if you don't (and you are), it can be a lot quicker to go to someone that can help you out.

cheers

[Sweep]

Agree with Brucey that even a dimwit like me when it comes to such matters will gradually learn things through existing bikes.

Two of my favourite bikes are quite different in type and vintage and over time I have moved saddles around - tho not stems, maybe I mysteriously got things sort of right by accident on that front.

It dawned on me that by fiddling I had ended up with both of these quite comfortable bikes being very similar.

Having learned a bit more I went of to Mr Hewitt.

All felt fine on his rig but he seemed to have slightly different ideas to me about where my legs/feet should be at the bottom of the stroke.

(I think I maybe pedal with a sort of slightly "pointy toe" (apologies for lack of technical terms) at the bottom of the stroke.

I went with his judgement.

I persevered with the saddle height for a fair bit but then perhaps inevitably raised the saddle to my own maybe prefered odd height.

But then the reach felt all wrong and I noticed that the measurements were some way adrift from my other two favourite bikes.

As I said, back to Hewitt and my new saddle height was maintained and the other stuff sorted.

So I now have 3 bikes (well more) which are all pretty much in agreement on key measurements - most notably distance from saddle to centre of bottom bracket. It can't be coincidence that without checking (well not until I started head scratching with regard to the Hewitt) all 3 bikes have ended up with, near as damnit, exactly the same centre of BB to saddle. It clearly suits me.

None of this a criticism of Mr Hewitt (his fitting fee is refundable against the price of his nice bikes and I paid no more for the subsequent adjustments some time later) though my experience is maybe another reason I remain somewhat wary of all these systems - KOPs/balancing plumb lines on your left kneecap/running a straight line from the tip of your nose to your sphincter or whatever.

Sloping top tubes - Brucey best qualified to answer this.

My understanding is that, due to mysterious stuff to do with angles (O level maths never my strong point) it allows a small number of frame sizes to be very adaptable.

And I like it on a tourer as it helps me to straddle/steady/handle a fully loaded bike. Some folk consider them a stylistic abomination I know but to me they are practical. And look OK to me.

[robc02]

Having read this, and the other thread on a similar vein, I am more confused than ever
It would appear that in order to get the best out of a custom frame I need to really know what I want, which is in itself sensible, however, the more I read, the more I see the gaping holes in my knowledge. I will try the KOPS formula, and see if this makes any difference, on the previous bike (19" hybrid I was never comfortable) on my "new" bike, 22.5" frame Dawes Galaxy, I have 110mm stem, and the saddle as far back as it will go, and 5" of seat post showing and its OK, most of the time.
Reading all the other info would it make much difference having a +3" Ape index? i also have a 33" inside leg (Book to floor method).

If you have any doubts about your riding position I would strongly advise that you get it sorted out before going to a custom builder. I know many have the skills and a good reputation for setting people up, but you will be in a much better position if you have already looked into it and done plenty of experimenting before visiting a frame builder. You might even find you don't need a custom build after all!

There is plenty of DIY info available, this one and its associated pages are interesting as are some of the threads on this forum and others. Whether you DIY or get a professional fit you need to give the results a good try before deciding to buy a frame based on it - unless, of course, your present setup cannot be adapted, even temporarily, to fit. If this is the case then a borrowed or secondhand frame/bike might save a lot of expense later on.

[martinn]

Well, finally got my bike, 853 Rourke, very pleased with it, will try to post pictures later.
Martin

[maxglide]

If you will rely on the builder to decide most of the above stuff, you will actually end up with his design** not yours.....a major difference between that and an "off the peg" frame is that you can test ride an off the peg and see if you like the way it rides.....with a "custom" frame, you can't do that, and its a huge disadvantage.

One of the best responses I've read re custom frames.

[Brucey]

If you will rely on the builder to decide most of the above stuff, you will actually end up with his design** not yours.....a major difference between that and an "off the peg" frame is that you can test ride an off the peg and see if you like the way it rides.....with a "custom" frame, you can't do that, and its a huge disadvantage.

One of the best responses I've read re custom frames.

One of the best reasons for going to a custom builder is that you have tried other things and they didn't work for you in rather specific fashions. So you might be reasonably sure that seat angle x combined with steering geometry Y and chainstay length Z ought be the best compromise for you. In this case your previous bikes were 'the test rides', and the builder will help you find a good mix of the 'ingredients' that you might think ought to work for you.

It may seem like luck that some riders get comfy on a frame, be it OTP or custom. I think luck has vey little to do with it in most cases; someone's knowledge has been applied, be it the rider's, the frame designer's, the dealers....

I think Gary Player said this of Golf....

The more I practice, the 'luckier' I get.....

and I think the same is true of fitting bicycles also.

cheers

[531colin]

Well, heres the whole quote......

Whether a custom frame makes any difference to the ride rather depends on the conversation you have with the builder.
If you can discuss in any detail things like....
do you want to sit behind or on top of the pedals
what steering do you want("lively" or "stable" is not much use...."livelier than this" or "more stable than that" will help)
how stiff do you want it? (again, not just "stiff" but "stiffer than this".....etc) ...NB stiffer means more jolting....choose carefully!
clearance for what size tyres?
top tube length?
toe overlap?
bar height?

If you will rely on the builder to decide most of the above stuff, you will actually end up with his design** not yours.....a major difference between that and an "off the peg" frame is that you can test ride an off the peg and see if you like the way it rides.....with a "custom" frame, you can't do that, and its a huge disadvantage.

**inevitably, his design will reflect what he likes to ride....if you can't tell him what you like to ride, what else can he do?

I stand by it.

[Sweep]

Interesting colin - that kind of, to me, makes sense of my experience with paul hewitt (please note again that i am not criticising him - though i would - other subject - have gone with square taper if i know what i know now and feel that he should have discussed this with ignorant me).

Feel free to shoot me down if i am misinterpreting your post.

I also know someone else who went for a bikefitting with condor in london.

Very highly regarded, they too have their pet theories.

After struggling with it for a while he sold it on.

Not saying that all bike fitting is off - i know at least one well pleased roberts owner.

My hewitt is now very comfy - after twiddling it now matches my other two main bikes - spooky.

[martinn]

When I went to be measured up I tried to bear in mind all that had been said, and described the type of riding that I would be wanting to do. What size of tyres that I wanted, mudguard clearance, and the type of ride that I wanted. I also described what I thought had been wrong in the the way the previous bikes had been uncomfortable. (I have long arms).
I did rely on the skill and knowledge of the staff measuring me up, to put what I had asked for into reality. SO yes I have probably ended up with "their" design, but for the first time since my return to cycling, I am riding a bike which is very comfortable to ride.

[hondated]

Well, finally got my bike, 853 Rourke, very pleased with it, will try to post pictures later.
Martin

Going by my own experience and what I have read that's a great choice. Dont forget to post photos.

[samsbike]

When I went to be measured up I tried to bear in mind all that had been said, and described the type of riding that I would be wanting to do. What size of tyres that I wanted, mudguard clearance, and the type of ride that I wanted. I also described what I thought had been wrong in the the way the previous bikes had been uncomfortable. (I have long arms).
I did rely on the skill and knowledge of the staff measuring me up, to put what I had asked for into reality. SO yes I have probably ended up with "their" design, but for the first time since my return to cycling, I am riding a bike which is very comfortable to ride.

I am happy that you got sorted and you must post pics.

I think I am odd proportioned and keep wondering if I should one day get a custom bike built. My only problem is that if I dont like it I am pretty stuffed!

[greyingbeard]

Dont worry about the "Loctite" issue. Loctite make a lot of products. Someone is refering you to THREADLOCK, used to stop threads coming undone too easily.

Dont use superglue !

[martinn]

http://www.rourke.biz/gallery.shtml#
Images of bike 3rd row down,

[Des49]

http://www.rourke.biz/gallery.shtml#
Images of bike 3rd row down,

Very smart looking bike indeed. You're in good company with other clients like Laura Trott, though her bike looks a bit different to yours.

I'd be interested to know how your paint finish holds up to usage.

Enjoy the new machine.