Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

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StuWW
Posts: 91
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 8:19pm

Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby StuWW » 22 Apr 2014, 7:51pm

Hi

I've been trying to help my partner with her Pashley Princess but need some advice.

She started having problems shifting into first gear some months ago, I never had chance to look at it and she carried on riding it using four gears.

Eventually I went through the adjustment procedure, second gear, yellow marker just appearing at the end of the axle etc.

Still no joy so we took it to the LBS, the had a tinker and confirmed that it wasn't the cable but probably a problem in the hub. Having stripped my 3 speed Sturmey last year I decided to strip the 5 speed down.

I came across the two big pawls and pawl springs in pieces so ordered some new parts. I flushed the bub through with paraffin to remove any shrapnel re greased it and rebuilt it.

It ran beautifully, but still struggled to shift and hold first gear, you needed the palm of your hand to move the leaver!

Reading up a bit more it seemed the Gear Selector Key Assembly might be to blame so I ordered one of those SA part number HA663.

In preparation for its arrival I have restripped the hub and removed the planet cage and sun gear assembly, assuming this was required to get the selector key out.

I tried to get the selector key out but can't suss out how it's done, can anyone tell me what the knack is or should I have bought the complete HSA674 Axle assembly!

Is there anything else that may be contributing to this gear selection problem or am I at least in the right neck of the woods?

Many thanks

Stuart
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Brucey
Posts: 41500
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby Brucey » 22 Apr 2014, 8:26pm

IIRC the axle key is similar to the one on the Sprinter 5 (dog locking) hub.

http://hadland.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/spr5.pdf

The troubles you have been having are not that unusual. They may in part stem from the shifting technique used.

In a nutshell, the technique suggested by SA is not the best one to use. The best way I know to shift from 2-1 and 1-2 is to pedal forwards (keeping up but without force) for up to two turns of the pedals. This will allow the shift to be complete before full force pedalling starts again. Shifting whilst freewheeling doesn't work. It usually just (with difficulty) compresses the shift control spring (on the axle key) rather than actually make the shift. The shift is then delayed until you start pedalling and if it doesn't go in instantly then damage can arise. With practice you will feel the gear go in.

If the hub has been full of shrapnel then the axle key and the shift control spring could be fouled by bits of swarf which again will make for a bad shift. I'd suggest fully dismantling the axle assy (and/or blowing it through with compressed air) in the event of such trouble.

Every modern SA 5 speed I have used has shifted poorly on this shift and every one has benefitted enormously from having better quality lubrication and improved gear shifting technique. I don't think the X-RD5(W) is SA's finest moment (far from it) but it should be better than that.

BTW it is unusual for the hub not to need a new actuator plate when it is in pieces. A new one is £1-50 well spent.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

StuWW
Posts: 91
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 8:19pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby StuWW » 22 Apr 2014, 9:30pm

Thanks Brucey,

I shall interrogate my good ladies shifting style!

I got the key out thanks to your PDF link.

There seems to be a bit of rounding on one of the V shaped wedges of the key, but nothing drastic!

I'll fire some air through it tomorrow and see if anything shifts from within the axle.

Your advice very much appreciated.

Regards

Stuart
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StuWW
Posts: 91
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 8:19pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby StuWW » 23 Apr 2014, 7:25pm

OK

New actuator plate and Gear Selector Key Assembly fitted, hub rebuilt and back in the bike. No bits left in box... good sign :D

Still struggling to get it to shift cleanly, I've got it to go into the low gear now, but using the yellow mark technique still leaves me with some chattering!

Pedalling backwards in the two lowest gears sounds quite clunky, the other three gears pedal back smoothly and the hub gives out a nice tick tick tick of the pawls when it's free wheeling!

Just can't dial it in to be bang on!

I'll keep fiddling, anymore tips gratefully accepted!

Cheers

Stuart
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Brucey
Posts: 41500
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby Brucey » 23 Apr 2014, 8:20pm

OK some things that might be obvious (but then again maybe not)

1) the RHS clearance; SA say to tighten the RH cone fully (with the LH cone backed right off) and then back the RH cone out 5/8 of a turn, then lock it off. IME this is a little too much; a touch less than 1/2 turn out is best. You will know if you have it too tight because the hub will be draggy in all gears. If it is just right the axle will go in and out of the hub a tiny bit when the LH cone is loose.

2) don't trust the indicator rod; it isn't always super accurate, even if it is the right one.... The best way of checking with a 5s hub is to check that

a) the control rod won't come out of the hub any more than it does when first gear is selected.
b) the control cable is completely slack in 5th
c) that in 4th gear, you need to pull about 3mm of cable (not less) before it slips into 3nd gear.

3) Mileage and lubrication. I found shifting so poor with the standard lube that I developed my own brew. With this installed, (plus the correct forwards pedalling technique) and much further use the shifting eventually gets to be pretty slick. With the standard lube on a low-mileage hub...meh... not so much. An Alfine it ain't.

HTH

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

StuWW
Posts: 91
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 8:19pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby StuWW » 23 Apr 2014, 8:28pm

Thanks again Brucey, I'll check the cones.

It certainly ain't an Alfine, but my Alfine 11 is a bit of a love hate relationship too, I love her at the moment, she even got treated to some Shimano mega $$$ oil the other day!

Why did I ever get rid of my Rohloff :? ! (because I was skint!)

Stuart
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StuWW
Posts: 91
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 8:19pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby StuWW » 24 Apr 2014, 8:39pm

:( This is starting to get tedious now, but I'm determined to suss it!

It seems that the shifting works fine from 5th through to 1st, but as you start to come back again and get to 3rd gear the adjuster chain and gear cable seem to stop retracting back into the hub. With some manual assistance it will go back in and the gears will drop back through to fifth.

Having replaced the gear selector key I'm guessing either the indicator spring and or indicator chain could be worn!

The indicator chain does look very slightly bowed, possibly from the initial problem of needing to force to get it into first.

Looks like a few more parts to order.

Luckily I'm starting to enjoy the life of a hub fettler!

Stuart
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Brucey
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Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby Brucey » 24 Apr 2014, 8:53pm

could the control cable or the shifter be draggy? This will stop the control from retracting, for sure.

[A good test is to set the gear in fifth on the workstand, then pull the chain out of the hub by hand. Note that the control rod won't move in and out fully or easily unless the hub is being driven forwards, i.e. you have to pedal forwards gently during the shift as per my suggested gear changing method.]

However if the control rod doesn't move easily in the hub (even when pedalling forwards gently) then it could be bent, or the main clutch may not be sliding on the axle properly... there are quite a few possibilities.

I quite like 5s hubs in a way; they are a lot less than twice as complicated and twice as heavy as a 3s hub, despite providing twice as many extra gears (over and above the direct drive) vs a 3s hub.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

StuWW
Posts: 91
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 8:19pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby StuWW » 24 Apr 2014, 9:07pm

Thanks again Brucey, I'll check the lever tomorrow and order a new indicator chain as well.

Cheers

Stuart
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Mr. Viking
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Joined: 6 Jun 2012, 9:29pm
Location: Liverpool

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby Mr. Viking » 22 Aug 2014, 3:41pm

I'm working through the same issue, but when stripping the hub I'm not able to get the drive side bearing cup off. I've tried using a hammer and punch but am approaching the point where I'm worried I'll break it. Am I being too gentle with it or is there something I'm missing

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby Brucey » 22 Aug 2014, 6:18pm

the first thing to remember is that you need to use a long punch, not a short one, and secondly remember to use a medium weight hammer, about 1/2lb in the head, not too much heavier or lighter than that,

Then two smart blows on one side, then turn the wheel 180 degrees, and do the same on the other side. It normally doesn't take too many goes to shift it. It is on a right hand thread of course.

hth

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

StuWW
Posts: 91
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 8:19pm

Re: Sturmey X-RD5(W) issues

Postby StuWW » 22 Aug 2014, 7:14pm

Just to add my problem continued, the bike was ridable but didn't seem to be as good as it had been.

I eventually solved it, this line in the manual was critical.

Ensure that no more than 2.5mm of axle protrudes from the axle nut

I added another spacer on the drive side and it ran sweet after that.

Good luck with yours Mr Viking!
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