Weight

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Weight

Postby [XAP]Bob » 30 Jun 2014, 9:53am

reohn2 wrote:
Brucey wrote:
it has got no pedals.... I wonder what they would leave off next to get the weight down a bit more.... :wink: :roll:

cheers

Mudguards,rack,saddlebag,anyone can cheat :? :mrgreen:


The seatpost bolt? Slightly more subtle ommission.

But then they've levt various bolts over length, and all the cables could have an inch taken off...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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reohn2
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Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 10:13am

robc02 wrote:
Have you read this:- http://pathlesspedaled.com/2012/12/sals ... surly-lht/
They rate the Vaya as a tourer that's a nice ride unloaded and the LHT as a heavy tourer and mention the unloaded harshness


That was one of the articles that initially raised my question! With the information available it doesn't seem logical.

The questions i always ask myself when reading reports are
a)do these people have any reason the favour one thing over the other ie; are they Salsa employees,etc.
b)Do their finding ring true with others I've read.
c)Do they seem to have cycling experience.
d)Do their experience of the bike ring true with mine




I'm probably not, but then my choice would be between a mid-heavy weight tourer vs a lighter weight tourer. My experience is mainly with 531C frames weighing under 2kg and forks around 800g. I seem to remember figures for 531ST frames around or slightly over 2kg - all in my size or thereabouts. I'd be interested to know the weight of something like a Bob Jackson World Tour in 631 OS compared to a LHT.

There ain't a comparison with 531C and 531ST they're two completely different tubesets.
The BJ I'd guess would be lighter than a LHT or a Vaya but not much,also It'll only take 32mm tyres IIRC,which would be a significant drawback for me.

I would have guessed that any noticeable harshness would come from the fork, but the Vaya fork is the same weight give or take a few grammes. A 531 fork is quite a bit lighter.

You'd need a significant hockey stick curve to a 531ST fork to get any kind of worthwhile give in it IME.
I'll be perfectly honest I rely on tyres for my comfort,big 35x35mm supple supple rubber run at the correct psi for load,they make a heck of a difference to ride quality and they aren't slow either,IME.


True, but then the Vaya has a sloping top tube which would result in weight saved so going someway towards compensating for the disc brake fittings. Whichever way you look at it there doesn't seem to be an obvious large difference in weight or construction to justify the claims that one of these gives a much harsher ride than the other. - I'm not saying it doesn't, just that I can't see why.

I agree but without riding both for a while you'll never truly know the difference.You pays yer money,etc :wink: .


EDIT: I was comparing the 58cm sizes in both for a direct comparison in terms of weight and effective top tube length. A 57 would be slightly better but is not available in the LHT.

FWIW I weighed the new Vaya frame and forks seperately bofore I built it up or fitted the headset,the fork was spot on Salsa's spec,the frame was 100g under spec.

Anyway a 0.75l bidon weighs 750g,two weigh 1.5kg.Unless I was traversing a dessert,I've found a 0.5l bottle and the first house/pub/stable/caravan site,etc when it's empty,saves me lugging around 1.25kg of extra weight :mrgreen:
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reohn2
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Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 10:20am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
The seatpost bolt? Slightly more subtle ommission.

But then they've levt various bolts over length, and all the cables could have an inch taken off...


I wouldn't like it to get blown over in a wind :roll:
It'd be a long walk home,but at least it wouldn't be heavy to carry :mrgreen:
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531colin
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Re: Weight

Postby 531colin » 30 Jun 2014, 1:09pm

robc02 wrote:
It's never been sold as a heavy tourer in the same way say a LHT has.


I'm curious about this! According to the specs from Salsa and Surly, in 58cm (the size I'd be interested in) the head and seat angles, fork rake, effective top tube and BB drop are virtually identical and they are both about the same weight - suggesting similar tube thicknesses. So why are they not both equally suitable heavy tourers? Is it just a question of marketing? .................


What, marketing as in Surly and Salsa are under the same parent company, Surly have a very good market for their LHT as a round-the-world tourer, so why not market the newer, funkier Vaya as a newer, funkier, more fun style of bike?

Nah, the thought never entered..........

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531colin
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Re: Weight

Postby 531colin » 30 Jun 2014, 1:22pm

Wheres Brucey when you need him?

If I'm right, the diameter of a tube is the major determinant of its stiffness, so you would be hard pushed to make a straight-gauge fork more flexible than a tapered one.

Brucey
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Re: Weight

Postby Brucey » 30 Jun 2014, 5:48pm

I think you are right, but it does depend very much on how thick-walled the fork blades are nearer the top, where the leverage is normally highest. And of course you can't see that.....

It is a subtle business; e.g. 531ST fork blades are not that much thicker than standard 531 blades yet you can tell the difference almost instantly.

The other thing that can cause a fork to feel harsh (or not) is the frame itself; both the top tube and the down tube can flex slightly and this adds to the movement of the fork. I've ridden the same fork in two different frames with different gauge main tubes and I thought the lighter main tubes made the lighter frame ride slightly better.

So if you allow for a little weight in the disc mounts coming from the main triangle in the Vaya, it could be that the ride will be a little different even with the same fork stiffness.

Finally it is as well to bear in mind that when you go over a bump, the fork will twang back and forth. The frequency of the twang will vary with the stiffness of the fork and the weight of the front wheel assy. A light wheel (esp with a skinny tyre) will feel very harsh in most touring frames in part because the frequency of vibration is quite high; this can be felt as being 'harsh riding'. Because the Vaya has a disc brake, the wheel assy will likely be a little heavier, which will lower the vibration frequency. Subjectively this will feel different; it might feel better...

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 6:07pm

531colin wrote:
What, marketing as in Surly and Salsa are under the same parent company, Surly have a very good market for their LHT as a round-the-world tourer, so why not market the newer, funkier Vaya as a newer, funkier, more fun style of bike?

Nah, the thought never entered..........


Ooh! you cynic you :mrgreen:

Think trad v mod :wink:

When I find something that works and fits 'in' with me,nestles comfortably in the hand like a good tool the balance feels 'right',it doesn't make a fuss about it but quietly gets on with it.
I think,kuhll I like that,I'm there...
That's how the Vaya works for me.
Oh yeah there's all the hype,from the usual sources,but I'm a bit long in the tooth to be fooled by all that stuff, the tool has got to do it without the fuss.

I'm in danger of talking philosophy I'll,so refrain :wink:
Last edited by reohn2 on 30 Jun 2014, 6:31pm, edited 3 times in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 6:11pm

531colin wrote:Wheres Brucey when you need him?

If I'm right, the diameter of a tube is the major determinant of its stiffness, so you would be hard pushed to make a straight-gauge fork more flexible than a tapered one.


I'd agree with that,but if the walls of the tapered fork are thick enough to take disc brake loads it'll be a pretty hefty lump not to fold :wink:
I'd say the LHT disc fork is as stiff as the Vaya's.
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mrjemm
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Re: Weight

Postby mrjemm » 30 Jun 2014, 6:43pm

reohn2 wrote:
531colin wrote:Wheres Brucey when you need him?

If I'm right, the diameter of a tube is the major determinant of its stiffness, so you would be hard pushed to make a straight-gauge fork more flexible than a tapered one.


I'd agree with that,but if the walls of the tapered fork are thick enough to take disc brake loads it'll be a pretty hefty lump not to fold :wink:
I'd say the LHT disc fork is as stiff as the Vaya's.


Thinking about this, I cannot see how a curve in the fork is relevant, being a seperate factor to the diameter of the tube, but maybe I am missing something. Surely a straight fork could be thinner, fatter or the same as a curved one, so any flex aspect is independent of the curve itself...?

Like I've said, I've noticed fore'n aft flex in mine insofar as I can observe the hub moving relative to the headtube, etc., but I cannot be sure what is actually flexing.

Brucey
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Re: Weight

Postby Brucey » 30 Jun 2014, 7:03pm

in the grand scheme of things the taper on the fork isn't the most important thing in terms of comfort but like R2 says it can make the fork weak in terms of its ability to resist disc brake loadings, because they are somewhat localised to the fork tip/disc mount area.

The bending loads in the fork tip in normal use (with rim brakes) are rather low. Some forks do have noticeably springy tips but these are the exception. The normal state of affairs is that the fork tip might be about five times less stiff but see ten times less bending load that the fork blade does higher up. In 1" forks the steerer can flex noticeably too.

One way of looking at it is that both the Vaya fork and the LHT fork have about 300g of extra steel in them somewhere vs a fairly lightweight fork like a standard 531DB one. If this extra weight is in the parts of the fork that see the highest bending stresses then the result could easily be a fork that is getting on for twice as stiff, and if it isn't then it might be of comparable stiffness despite the extra weight.

cheers
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al_yrpal
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Re: Weight

Postby al_yrpal » 30 Jun 2014, 7:04pm

Curved tapered forks are beautiful, wish more of these manufacturers fitted them. The tapering and offset obviously do add a small amount of deflection because of the offset and this must ultimately reflect in comfort. But I guess with disk brakes its possibly incompatible and would lead to shuddering braking?

Al
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Weight

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 30 Jun 2014, 7:09pm

Hi,
Brucey wrote:IFinally it is as well to bear in mind that when you go over a bump, the fork will twang back and forth. The frequency of the twang will vary with the stiffness of the fork and the weight of the front wheel assy. A light wheel (esp with a skinny tyre) will feel very harsh in most touring frames in part because the frequency of vibration is quite high; this can be felt as being 'harsh riding'. Because the Vaya has a disc brake, the wheel assy will likely be a little heavier, which will lower the vibration frequency. Subjectively this will feel different; it might feel better...

cheers

As your on twanging what about unspung weight of wheel assembly, the heavier assembly fairs better :?:
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robc02
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Re: Weight

Postby robc02 » 30 Jun 2014, 7:12pm

Of course, this discussion (LHT / Vaya) depends upon the accuracy of the manufacturers' quoted weights. R2 has commented on the Vaya, has anyone verified Surly's figures?

Brucey
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Re: Weight

Postby Brucey » 30 Jun 2014, 7:16pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
As your on twanging what about unspung weight of wheel assembly, the heavier assembly fairs better :?:


Although in most other cases a lower unsprung weight would be better, in this case yes, I'd argue that a heavier wheel might be better on a stiff touring fork because it might not feel so harsh at a lower frequency.

I base this notion in part on the experience of using the same bike with and without a dynohub, but with everything else the same; the bike definitely rode differently over bumps, with the lighter wheel assy feeling 'racier' but not necessarily more comfortable.

Anyone else noted anything comparable?

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 7:32pm

mrjemm wrote:Thinking about this, I cannot see how a curve in the fork is relevant, being a seperate factor to the diameter of the tube, but maybe I am missing something. Surely a straight fork could be thinner, fatter or the same as a curved one, so any flex aspect is independent of the curve itself...?

If the walls are thinner in the right place on a curved fork,it absorbs road shock by bending repeatedly,but that shock has to get as far as the fork.
With a HP narrow tyre a lot of the shock is transferred upward to the fork and then onto the rider if the shock is too harsh for the spring in the fork to handle.
Shock with a big and supple enough tyre at the right psi for load takes the bigger hits but also absorbs the small stuff too and the big tyre eliminates the high frequency vibration I find so tiring and energy sapping.
On billiard table smooth tarmac roads neither matters but as we know life on UK roads ain't like that.

Like I've said, I've noticed fore'n aft flex in mine insofar as I can observe the hub moving relative to the headtube, etc., but I cannot be sure what is actually flexing.

I to have noticed the Vaya deflecting but no where near like a 531C fork would riding 25mm tyres with 85psi in.

Of course the ideal comfortable folk would be a nice light one with the trad hockey stick bend with big clearances for those big supple tyres,or is it?
Or would things then get too springy or would the front tyre need more air in it to take advantage of the fork's spring?
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