Weight

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
mrjemm
Posts: 2933
Joined: 20 Nov 2011, 4:33pm

Re: Weight

Postby mrjemm » 30 Jun 2014, 7:48pm

I just remembered that there was a duff batch of Vaya forks IIRC, and I wonder if when this happened they altered the design, and in doing so, increased the weight and/or stiffness. I have the old ones (pre failure batch) fitted on the new bike, and haven't tried the new ones, but the disc mount is different. Not looked close enough to see if the tubing or anything else is different. Perhaps R2, with both an old and a new Vaya in action, you'll have noticed a difference, if it is significant in any way.

I agree that curved forks can look nice, but I do also like straight ones, particularly tapered, despite this being potentially hazardous.

robc02 wrote:Of course, this discussion (LHT / Vaya) depends upon the accuracy of the manufacturers' quoted weights. R2 has commented on the Vaya, has anyone verified Surly's figures?


Perhaps, being QBP, i.e. the same family, and perhaps fabrication facility, they'd be weighed on the same scales, and subject to the same error.

If of interest, I've also compared my tube diameters now, albeit a little bodgily with a manky paper (IKEA) tape measure to measure circumference... (i.e. all very approximate).

Old top tube: 29.3mm.
New top tube: 32.5mm.
Old down tube: 32.5mm.
New down tube: 35.6mm.

Both tubes thicker in new one, but metal is stainless, not Cro-mo. Both factors would suggest stiffer, yes? But... the quoted weight differences are less than the S&S couplings would account for, if I am not mistaken, so I'd guess the tubes are thinner walled. Seeing as I dinged the old'n a few times, I am petrified of doing it to this one.

Edit... just seen R2's last post. Hopefully see soon- have ordered some nice'n fat V Rando Hypers at 40mm! Mine ain't no skinny-minnie... :mrgreen:

reohn2
Posts: 40641
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 7:56pm

al_yrpal wrote:Curved tapered forks are beautiful, wish more of these manufacturers fitted them.

If you mean aesthetically,beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
If you mean for ride quality,they vary enormously.
The tapering and offset obviously do add a small amount of deflection because of the offset and this must ultimately reflect in comfort.

Only if the fork is lightweight enough to deflect,heavy curved touring forks,531ST etc,are harsh IME.

But I guess with disk brakes its possibly incompatible and would lead to shuddering braking?

Al

Or worse,they'de fold under heavy braking :shock: .
There was a photo linked to on here some years back, of an ordinary road fork that had,had a disc brake mount brazed on,it folded on the first ES and looked a complete wreck,I don't think the rider was in too good a shape afterwards either IIRC.
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reohn2
Posts: 40641
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 8:29pm

mrjemm wrote:I just remembered that there was a duff batch of Vaya forks IIRC, and I wonder if when this happened they altered the design, and in doing so, increased the weight and/or stiffness. I have the old ones (pre failure batch) fitted on the new bike, and haven't tried the new ones, but the disc mount is different. Not looked close enough to see if the tubing or anything else is different. Perhaps R2, with both an old and a new Vaya in action, you'll have noticed a difference, if it is significant in any way.

No I can't say I've noticed any difference in the two forks.

I agree that curved forks can look nice, but I do also like straight ones, particularly tapered,

Me too,they have a certain elegance IMO.
despite this being potentially hazardous.

Only if they aren't thick walled enough.


Perhaps, being QBP, i.e. the same family, and perhaps fabrication facility, they'd be weighed on the same scales, and subject to the same error.

Been looking on Surly's site,I can't find any frame or fork weights for the LHT Disc Trucker :?


If of interest, I've also compared my tube diameters now, albeit a little bodgily with a manky paper (IKEA) tape measure to measure circumference... (i.e. all very approximate).

Old top tube: 29.3mm.
New top tube: 32.5mm.
Old down tube: 32.5mm.
New down tube: 35.6mm.

Both tubes thicker in new one, but metal is stainless, not Cro-mo. Both factors would suggest stiffer, yes? But... the quoted weight differences are less than the S&S couplings would account for, if I am not mistaken, so I'd guess the tubes are thinner walled.

Don't know about wall thickness but I've just been out and acurately measured the tubes of both bikes with a digital vernier:-
New Vaya d/tube,32.8 t/tube 32.8.
Old Vaya d/tube 32.8,t/tube 28.8.
Both Vaya s/tubes are 28.6 at the bottom with external butting at the top that measures 29.9
Fork legs top 28.7* bottom 19.8

*the fork leg tube at the top is oval,I measured the widest part.



Seeing as I dinged the old'n a few times, I am petrified of doing it to this one.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/economy-pipe- ... cs72Pw_wcB
:mrgreen:
Edit... just seen R2's last post. Hopefully see soon- have ordered some nice'n fat V Rando Hypers at 40mm! Mine ain't no skinny-minnie... :mrgreen:

I was dithering in that direction only last night :shock:
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Brucey
Posts: 42162
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Weight

Postby Brucey » 30 Jun 2014, 9:32pm

reohn2 wrote: Been looking on Surly's site,I can't find any frame or fork weights for the LHT Disc Trucker :? ....


me neither. I can't find any weights anywhere else either.

The fork looks like it just has a disc mount nailed onto it (which, if so, lends weight to the idea that it is overbuilt for rim brake use...) and the rear dropouts are large castings on the disc trucker. Colin suggests that the tube gauges are (externally, anyway) similar to the LHT. However with the added gubbins vs canti bosses, I think the chances of it being the same weight as the LHT are quite small, but I can't demonstrate that convincingly....

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

robc02
Posts: 1747
Joined: 23 Apr 2009, 7:12pm
Location: Stafford

Re: Weight

Postby robc02 » 30 Jun 2014, 10:50pm

Been looking on Surly's site,I can't find any frame or fork weights for the LHT Disc Trucker


No, not any more, but they did at one point. I am fairly sure the frame was in the order of 2600+ grammes (no idea how much the + represents). I'm not so sure about the fork but something around 1200 grammes rings a bell, subject to rounding!

niggle
Posts: 3424
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: Weight

Postby niggle » 30 Jun 2014, 11:03pm

Surly quote weights for other frames and forks, e.g. the Straggler, on which I have just noticed the curved disc fork ( and I do like that purple colour 8) ).

reohn2
Posts: 40641
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 11:04pm

robc02 wrote:
Been looking on Surly's site,I can't find any frame or fork weights for the LHT Disc Trucker


No, not any more, but they did at one point. I am fairly sure the frame was in the order of 2600+ grammes (no idea how much the + represents). I'm not so sure about the fork but something around 1200 grammes rings a bell, subject to rounding!

If that's a 57 or 58cm size,it's a lot heavier than the equivalent Vaya as I posted earlier my 57cm are 2240g frame and 1010g fork.
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reohn2
Posts: 40641
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 11:18pm

niggle wrote:Surly quote weights for other frames and forks, e.g. the Straggler, on which I have just noticed the curved disc fork ( and I do like that purple colour 8) ).

The fork weight(which is very similar looking to a Disc Trucker fork)for the Straggler is given as 1050g,with the frame 2270g for a 54cm size.
I like that colour too.

Brucey wrote: and the rear dropouts are large castings on the disc trucker.


Those rear dropouts are very,very similar to the Vaya's
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Brucey
Posts: 42162
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Weight

Postby Brucey » 30 Jun 2014, 11:21pm

so the suggestion is that the disc trucker is about 300g heavier overall than the Vaya....?

That would explain the difference in reputation...?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

robc02
Posts: 1747
Joined: 23 Apr 2009, 7:12pm
Location: Stafford

Re: Weight

Postby robc02 » 30 Jun 2014, 11:23pm

reohn2 wrote:
robc02 wrote:
Been looking on Surly's site,I can't find any frame or fork weights for the LHT Disc Trucker


No, not any more, but they did at one point. I am fairly sure the frame was in the order of 2600+ grammes (no idea how much the + represents). I'm not so sure about the fork but something around 1200 grammes rings a bell, subject to rounding!

If that's a 57 or 58cm size,it's a lot heavier than the equivalent Vaya as I posted earlier my 57cm are 2240g frame and 1010g fork.


Maybe, subject to my memory being correct, this explains the reported difference. Though the Vaya's "compact" configuration would account for some of the weight difference.

reohn2
Posts: 40641
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2014, 11:43pm

robc02 wrote:Maybe, subject to my memory being correct, this explains the reported difference. Though the Vaya's "compact" configuration would account for some of the weight difference.

Which I really like,not only for looks but for practicality too,especially when riding off road.

I was also going to mention how much I like the low BB drop(75mm)on the Vaya but I see that the LHT/DT are 3mm lower @ 78mm good for dabbing a foot down either at TL's or on uneven ground off road.
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mrjemm
Posts: 2933
Joined: 20 Nov 2011, 4:33pm

Re: Weight

Postby mrjemm » 30 Jun 2014, 11:44pm

Curiously, the straggler forks are 400 a-c, compared to the disc trucker's 390, and allows 50mm tyre (w/o mudguard) against 45mm (no mention of m/g). For a sparkly metallic colour, it is nice in the flesh too.

I think the DT's dropouts look too bulky compared to the Vaya's which are more cut out. Though the Vaya Travel's got the slightly daft 'alternator' ones.

The Soma Saga disc is almost identical to the DT, and they list the weight of the smallest only; 5.15lbs, 44cm, which seems heavy. Dropouts more cutout though, and has a plate for a stand.
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product ... -frame-set

mrjemm
Posts: 2933
Joined: 20 Nov 2011, 4:33pm

Re: Weight

Postby mrjemm » 1 Jul 2014, 12:30pm

reohn2 wrote:Edit... just seen R2's last post. Hopefully see soon- have ordered some nice'n fat V Rando Hypers at 40mm! Mine ain't no skinny-minnie... :mrgreen:

I was dithering in that direction only last night :shock:[/quote]

Full suspension Vaya ahoy... time for a test ride! :D

p.s. Just rode teeny little Straggler up'n down a bumpy drive, probably looked a right wally, but there was indeed deflection observable. Not exactly scientific, so couldn't say how that compared with the Vaya...

robc02
Posts: 1747
Joined: 23 Apr 2009, 7:12pm
Location: Stafford

Re: Weight

Postby robc02 » 1 Jul 2014, 12:43pm

robc02 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
robc02 wrote:
No, not any more, but they did at one point. I am fairly sure the frame was in the order of 2600+ grammes (no idea how much the + represents). I'm not so sure about the fork but something around 1200 grammes rings a bell, subject to rounding!

If that's a 57 or 58cm size,it's a lot heavier than the equivalent Vaya as I posted earlier my 57cm are 2240g frame and 1010g fork.


Maybe, subject to my memory being correct, this explains the reported difference. Though the Vaya's "compact" configuration would account for some of the weight difference.


Thinking about this a bit more..... it seems unlikely that around 300g extra are in the dropouts/disc mount minus the removal of canti fittings. Perhaps there is, after all, more metal in the seat and/or chainstays to handle the brake loads on the Disc Trucker? Maybe the same applies to the forks as well? If so it would explain the reported harshness compared to the Vaya, and also suggest it is harsher compared to the plain old LHT.

reohn2
Posts: 40641
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Weight

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2014, 1:07pm

mrjemm wrote:Full suspension Vaya ahoy... time for a test ride! :D

p.s. Just rode teeny little Straggler up'n down a bumpy drive, probably looked a right wally, but there was indeed deflection observable. Not exactly scientific, so couldn't say how that compared with the Vaya...


What tyres are on the Straggler and at what TP's?
The fork will deflect more if the tyres are small section and HP's

I'm going to order a pair of 40mm Hypers next week when we get back,we're going away for about a week so I may not post before we get back,see ya'll soon :)
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