Sturmey Archer WRD5 (W) Adjustment

[Remy76]

Hello,

I apologise if my questions has already been answered in a previous post (I did look through them, but you never know). I have a Pashley Roadster Sovereign with a Sturmey Archer XRD 5 (W) gear hub. I had the bike delivered to a local shop for assembly and unfortunately I could have been luckier in my choice of shop... I did take the bike to another shop for gear adjustment and an overhaul, but I've found out that I was better off trying to do it myself with the manual. However, there's a bit of a conundrum. The manual explains that in order to adjust the gears, one should shift into 2nd and then align the coloured mark (orange in my case) with the end of the axle. I did try that, and it sort of works, but what I cannot understand is that the marker is not in the same position if I shift into 2nd from 1st or into 2nd from 3rd. The gears seem to be working ok-ish but there's the odd crank noise from time to time, especially when I really put my foot down on the pedal. All in all I think it should/could be smoother. It sometimes feel as though the gear has not shifted properly. The last thing I want is to damage the gears so here I am. I would appreciate any advice you may have. I do make sure that the gear is properly engaged before I adjust the tension of the cable.
Finally, I've noticed that when I was adjusting the cable connector the cable itself tended to twist, which may account for an improper adjustment as it then gets untwisted.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Remy

[Brucey]

when you upshift (and sometimes downshift) you need to pedal forwards so that the new gear goes in; if you don't do that then the rod doesn't move properly and you will get a false indication. Other possible causes include a bad shift cable.

However..... there is another problem... I'd bet money that the shifter is the SA one that looks all shiny and nice with an aluminium lever. I've encountered a few of these and they have mostly done the same thing which is that they have not indexed properly. I'd suggest that when you downshift, you get in the habit of nudging the lever in the upshift direction towards the detent. If you don't do this the adjustment will be different on upshifts and downshifts. Terrible, isn't it?

We used to moan about the, uh, 'variable quality' of SA products when they were built in Nottingham. But now they come out of Taiwan they have found new ways of making them not work properly. It doesn't help that the instructions for shifting don't work either; the only way of reliably making many of the shifts is to pedal forwards with no real force on the pedals until the shift is in. But they don't tell you that is what you have to do, no....

hth

cheers

[Remy76]

Hi Brucey, and thanks for your reply.

The shifter is an SL-S50. You're right about the pedalling forward gently for the first two rotations so as to make sure the gear's properly engaged, I was doing that, but it would still crank later sometimes. I've just tried what you suggested with nudging the lever a wee bit and it seems spot on!!! (I got it wrong at first thinking stupidly downshift = pulling lever down - no laughs please ) But I've tried (while the bike's on its stand and I move the pedal with my hand) to move the lever back, after a downshift, to the point where I can feel tension on the cable and it seems to be a lot smoother, and the mark is in the same place whether I'm in 2nd from 1st or 3rd. I guess it seems obvious now (it's got to be something in the stroke of the cable) but I would never have found that out without you.

This is really annoying though, you'd think they could get that right? When I bought the bike, I did it to commute to work (5,5 miles) and I was pleased to buy a bike made in England, but I wasn't specifically interested in the SA gear hub as friends were happy with their Nexus. I took it as a plus, but I may have been mistaken! Otherwise I'm really pleased with it, it's surprisingly manoeuvrable given its size and weight and it's a very nice riding position.

Thanks again for your advice, I will let you know once I've ridden it again,

Cheers,

Remy

[Remy76]

Brucey,

You must be the SA guru! I tried it your way, and it worked like a charm. Very smooth changing of gears and no weird noises or cranking from the hub. It finally feels as though it's operating as it should. Until then there were times when I couldn't tell the difference between two gears, now I can. Just out of curiosity, and imagining I had a lot of time on my hands, would it be possible to set this right, i.e. to make the gears shift properly without having to nudge the lever? Does it come from a wrong calibrating of the shifter itself?

Thanks again, it's made a big difference. I was grinning to myself as I was shifting on my commute.

Cheers,

Remy

[Brucey]

I'm glad it worked out OK.

I have used SA hubs for many years and where possible I try to see what is going on inside the newer models. The current (W) 5s hub isn't the best they have produced in some respects but at least it is more or less repairable. It has a terrible reputation in all the LBSs near me; they all had low expectations from previous issues with 5s hubs but this is different. I don't think you should expect an average rider to shift in the way that is necessary, and LBSs don't know that this is what you must do anyway.

I bought an SL-S50 shifter a while back, hoping that I could use it or modify it to be used with an earlier SA 5s hub. It turns out that the cable pull is different on the (W) hub so this shifter is no use for an earlier hub. I think it might be possible to modify it for use with other hubs but I've not bothered yet.

However I also noted the issue with the detents, and knowing what I know about these hubs I was able to conclude that this would be a problem for sure. I've rebuilt my lever so that it works properly, but I cannot recommend this course of action to others; it is very fiddly to do the job properly and even second time around it would be about an hour's work, with lots of tiny parts that can escape without warning. I had my lever apart about ten times before I got it right... it was a right PITA to do. I had intended offering to rebuild levers for people but it is so awkward I'm not sure I want to do it ever again!

I reckon if you are careful with the shifting, keep the adjustment right, and give the hub a shot of grease every year or so, it should last well enough; the basic idea is sound enough, and most of the parts seem fairly well made... it is just that the devil is in the detail and that is where it is let down.

cheers

[gerrymcm]

I have an SA hub that I might be forced to put to work sooner than expected due to unresolved issues with Alfine.
Do all the 5 speed shifters have this issue?

[Brucey]

all the SL-S50 shifters I have seen have been equally bad.

If you are running a different SA 5s hub (i.e. one without a (W) suffix) you need a different shifter anyway.

cheers

[SA_SA_SA]

Is the plastic SLW5N R5 5 Speed wide ratio thumb shifter any better?

[Brucey]

I think it is; it is at least more accurate, even if it does wear out a bit sooner than I'd like.

cheers

[Carmen]

I had the same problems with my pashley sovereign. Bike shop where I bought it kept insisting that there was nothing wrong with the gears. 2nd bikeshop fixed it temporarily untill the chain got slack. A few weeks after the 2nd bike shop had fixed it again, my wheel jammed as one of the nuts had come loose. Then I realized why I had all these problems as there were no chain tensioners on the bike ! something all my previous dutch bikes have had and they are essential for keeping the wheel in position and the tension of the gear cable. I don't know if Pashley doesn't put them on or if the 1st bike shop had not fitted them. I suggest you check your bike if they are on yours.
Another note of this bike or rather the brooks saddle. Saddle looks nice but the 'nails' have marked my clothing so I have put a normal saddle on it
So overall not a happy Pashley customer, next time I buy a gazelle again.

[Remy76]

Thanks for all your replies, and sorry about being so long to check the forum (you know the drill, 2 young kids, wifey's got a long commute to work...)
@ Carmen, I hear you with the bike shops... They've been trying to persuade me that everything was fine with it too, but I could tell there was something amiss. Brucey's fix has been working really well for me, but it is also true that I didn't expect that kind of issue after buying the Pashley. I don't think there are chain tensioners on mine either. I also had the very same problem with the rear wheel blocking after one the nuts came loose, I think I'll still blame the shop on that one. I'd just had the bike for a couple of weeks, so there's no way it would have come loose if it had been tightened properly I think.
Now, this may not be the place to discuss that, but I was quite pleased with Pashley after sales service. When I got the bike and it was put together by the local shop, I noticed that there were just about 2 mm of clearance between the wheel and the front mudguard. I couldn't adjust it any higher as the top of the mudguard was already in contact with the lower part of the fork axis. I took a picture and emailed it to Pashley, and they thought that I had been sent a fork for a 26 inch wheel, so they shipped another fork. Well, it didn't fix anything as the fork was the exact same, but it's the thought that counts hey? I finally managed to bend the mudguard slightly so that it wouldn't brush so close to the wheel.
I've ordered a poncho from Carradice and I'm looking forward to cycling in the rain without getting either drenched in rain or in sweat. I'm new to bike commuting and I'm having a hard time pacing myself. I may leave lots of time early, but when I'm on the bike I can't help pushing on the pedals.
All in all, although there are a few things that disappointed me with the Pashley (the gears, the mudguard, and some old-fashioned squeaky noises that make think I must be cycling up the lane to Downton Abbey - not an altogether unpleasant ride, mind you) I'm also very happy with the feel of it. Very manoeuvrable for the size and I was also surprised with how "fast" it is. I expected it to be bulkier and more difficult to get going (then again, I am sweating profusely). It's also very stable and comfortable. One last thought, the bike came with Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres, do you think this is the best compromise resistance - adherence - speed?
Thanks to all again,

Remy

[Brucey]

glad to hear that your gears are working better. I spent this evening investigating the insides of a SA 7s hub (which uses the same dog locking system on the sun pinions as the (W) 5s hub) and it is just incredible how jiggered everything can get if the gears start slipping with that system.

I'd suggest that you should think about getting some chain tugs fitted to your Pashley. My own Pashley has 26" wheels but the frame and fork appear to be identical to some of the models that use larger wheels, so you can get rather different BB heights with these bikes. Steel mudguards quite often need a bit of tweak to fit right, your LBS should have done this.

What I've noticed is that the pashley frames usually have a pretty wide slot in the dropouts at the back, and that this can cause all kinds of problems. All hub gears need No-Turn-Washers (NTWs) in order to resist the torsion reaction forces that are exerted on the axle when in the high and low gears. In a 5s hub the axle gets twisted both ways so the NTWs have to be a snug fit; in many pashley frames they just are not a good enough fit, and vigorous riding will loosen the axle every single time.

SA's standard NTWs vary with hub model and spec; some are OK but some are not, (being brittle) and can break up if the mating faces are not quite flat. At one stage I managed to spin the axle in my SA hub on my pashley after the NTWs failed, and this nearly wrecked the hub. After this episode I attacked my frame with a welding set and made the droputs a better fit for an SA axle and NTWs; the result was no further trauma of this kind.

Note also that the (W) hub needs two NTWs that share the work equally each side; the reason for this is that (like any dog- locking, slotted axle hub, or one with pawls recessed into it, like an N8) the axle isn't very stiff in torsion; if not supported correctly at both ends, such axles can fail in torsion.

Carmen's comment that a Gazelle might be a better choice isn't an altogether mad idea; I don't know how it is at present but Gazelles have always been very well thought out in the past; I have a Gazelle of similar age to my Pashley too. Both machines are fitted with SA hubs and I think that the Gazelle is far better made. However it should be; it was more expensive when it was new than a similar Pashley, despite the fact that (unlike a Pashley) it wasn't fitted with an expensive Brooks saddle. The gazelle is also slightly heavier. Strong points on the Gazelle (in comparison to the Pashley) are;

-better frame finish. No comparison really; the Gazelle wins that hands down on both looks and durability. However the paint finish on the mudguards is poor on both machines; I've had to treat them internally with waxoyl else they would have rusted through after the first ten years or so.

-better quality cycle parts. On my gazelle there are numerous stainless steel parts, peculiar stainless steel bolts (made specially for Gazelle in some cases I think), stainless steel chain tensioners (that do not appear on later Gazelle models I believe), and special brake cables, gear cables, etc. with corrosion resistant end fittings. Even the chaincase on the Gazelle is better quality.

Re tyres; marathon pluses are about the most puncture-proof tyres you can get, and can be hard work unless kept at a high pressure. Bearing in mind what a monumental PITA it is to repair a rear puncture (I normally get the patches and glue out, it is quicker than removing the rear wheel) I think they are a good choice. That said, my Gazelle presently has 'road plus' tyres on it (which are a little lighter and less puncture proof than M+ are) and so far a year's use has resulted in zero punctures. Maybe I've just been lucky. A good compromise is to fit a lighter tyre to the front wheel and keep something bomb-proof on the back.

cheers

[jonnyf]

From bitter personal experience I would avoid Sturmey Archer 5 speed hubs and also Pashley bicycles.
I ditched the X-RD5 hub in favour of a more robust 3 speed SA unit which is still going strong.
I also fitted the SA dymo and drum brake front hub - excellent kit.
The X-RD5 failed soon after purchase and became a heavy 4 speed hub.
I had a similar experience to other cyclists, with the retailer attributing the faults to the shifter, poor adjustment and worn cables.

My Pashley Paramount first broke at the top of the downtube, just below the seat clamp and recently the entire bottom bracket fell off.
Luckily the frame is steel and it can be welded back togther.
Pashley were not at all interested in the problems, or to look at the bike to see why it might have failed.

[TwoWheelsGood]

One review claims that these hubs are very reliable if set up properly, which makes me think that the seemingly-dodgy SLS50 thumbshifter could also be the cause of other problems where the hub gets damaged due to being ridden out of adjustment? There are also push button and twist shifters available that are worth trying for a better shift action.

And a review of the Pashley Speed 5 did mention the "not being able to tell two gears apart" problem as well; the Speed 5 uses the same SLS50 thumbshifter.