10 speed Campag shifters

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mattsccm
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10 speed Campag shifters

Postby mattsccm » 24 Oct 2014, 10:20am

Am I right in thinking that new 10 speed Ergos have a different pull or shift than older ones?
I am replacing some 2006 Ergos. that has potential to cause issues with the mechs, especially the rear one. To complicate matters I am using an elderly Comp triple rear mech which is 9 speed. It works fine though. A new rear mech is obvious although un wanted but I doubt I can get a new spec one that will cope with a 32t sprocket.
That's another issue as its a SRAM one respaced with spacers that came from a conversion cassette.
Your thought please.

Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby Brucey » 24 Oct 2014, 10:26am

they changed the 9s rear mech shift ratio years ago (see the shimergo page for details). All 10s campag have the same shift ratio for the rear mech.

But front mech pull protocol varies with the age of the shifter, and what definitely works with what is complicated esp. if the LH shifter has fewer clicks.

Having said this most of the problems you are likely to encounter can be solved by using a different front mech and slightly altering the cable mount on the rear mech if needs be.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

tatanab
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby tatanab » 24 Oct 2014, 10:47am

Brucey wrote:All 10s campag have the same shift ratio for the rear mech
I think Campag may disagree (or my understanding is wrong). I have a PDF (so cannot add it to this post) of a Campag compatibility chart for old and new style 10speed, the page is ERRATA CORRIGE - COMPATIBILITY 2010 / 2011

It shows that a 2010 Iltrashift (i.e the last of the old style) is compatible with 2010 Veloce and Centaur but not with 2011 versions of those mechs. So the mechs, therefore so have the levers.

Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby Brucey » 24 Oct 2014, 10:52am

isn't that to do with the front mech...? Or have I got my gear cables crossed?

cheers
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tatanab
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby tatanab » 24 Oct 2014, 10:59am

According to the chart, front is ok it is rear that is a problem.

If Campag had not revamped their website I'd have half a chance of finding where I got the PDF. I've looked for about 20 minutes so I might just give up.

Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby Brucey » 24 Oct 2014, 11:37am

the chart is on p48 of section A of the 2011 spare parts catalogue.

You might be right. On the other hand that part of that chart might be cobblers; comparing the 2010 and 2011 catalogues there is extensive carry-over of pns in 10s kit and I think nowhere else does it indicate that there are two different 10s rear cable pull standards, which it would surely do if that were the case?

Maybe I just have not looked hard enough... ?

cheers
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MartinC
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby MartinC » 24 Oct 2014, 12:17pm

My understanding from that chart was that pre and post 2010 cable pulls were different 'cos the mech geometry was different but the guy from the UK Campagnolo tech centre (is it Velotech?) recently posted here that they are all the same. Must go an find the thread.

mattsccm
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby mattsccm » 24 Oct 2014, 12:21pm

That a touch more that pushes me to have a go. My 06 rear Ergo shifted the 9 speed Comp triple rear mech perfectly as far as I could tell.

MartinC
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby MartinC » 24 Oct 2014, 12:23pm

Don't know how to paste the link on my tablet but it's in the thread with Daytona 10 speed in the title - from earlier this month.

Valbrona
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby Valbrona » 24 Oct 2014, 1:53pm

mattsccm wrote:Your thought please.


You bike sounds a bit higgle-dey piggle-dey. Campagnolo do Athena Triple 11 speed.
I should coco.

Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby Brucey » 24 Oct 2014, 2:19pm

MartinC wrote:My understanding from that chart was that pre and post 2010 cable pulls were different 'cos the mech geometry was different but the guy from the UK Campagnolo tech centre (is it Velotech?) recently posted here that they are all the same. Must go an find the thread.


http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=91254&sid=16264e406dbcb62585eeb1f78f378d8c

cheers
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gfk_velo
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby gfk_velo » 25 Oct 2014, 1:05am

MartinC wrote:My understanding from that chart was that pre and post 2010 cable pulls were different 'cos the mech geometry was different but the guy from the UK Campagnolo tech centre (is it Velotech?) recently posted here that they are all the same. Must go an find the thread.


All the 10s rear gears have the same movement per cable pull.

What is different is the amount of return spring tension that the rear derailleur has.

For this reason, as the return spring generates tension in the cable and tension in the cable is responsible for some of the lever action, especially in UltraShift levers, the recommendation is that current 10s RDs are not used with UltraShift or with "traditional" Ergopower, as the return spring tension is lower, being optimised for the lighter-action PowerShift levers.

Chorus, Record, Comp and Racing T 10s RDs all shared the same return spring tension and this has never changed - it works fine with all Campag 10s shifters, although again, we don't recommend there stronger-sprung RDs with Escape or PowerShift levers as the plastic internals may suffer from some loss of longevity. 9s RDs were broadly the same in this respect although some changes were made in 2000 when RD geometry was changed. Pre 2000 RDs have a Shimano-type B screw adjuster & won't work with current Ergos unless the lever is modified.

Xenon systems changed to Escape in 2002 and the RD spring tension, which had orginally been the same as Chorus, Record etc. was reduced at that stage. When, Mirage, Veloce and Centaur changed to Escape in 2007, their respective RDs followed suit.

When UltraShift was launched for model year 2009 in Veloce and Centaur(early examples went out OE in late 2008), initially the RDs supplied were just a carry-over from the previous Escape-compatible versions but at the beginning of 2009, Campagnolo realised that due to increased friction in the lever and some other design elements, a stronger spring would be needed so for one model year only, they produced Veloce and Centaur 10s RDs that looked externally like the 2007-2008 version but had a stronger return spring.

For MY2010, the 10s RDs were all redesigned with a similar appearance to the 11s gears but with the same shift geometry as their predecessors, the levers were changed to PowerShift and the springing in the RDs was once again reduced in force.

So, to sum up for the OP and add a couple of other points for others who may have a similar query and trip over this thread:
Chorus, Record, Comp and Racing T - full compatibility with any 10s Ergo but maybe some durability issues with Escape and PowerShit lever internals.

Xenon through Centaur - depending on year, there may and may not be enough "oomph" to shift correctly with all Ergos - it depends a bit on the complexity, "cleanliness" of line and length of the cable run, too, as well as the state of the cable guides and the condition of the cables.

In the context of the OPs query, as I read it, he should probably try and lay his hands on some 10s shifters from the Chorus or Record 10s ranges for maximum durability - there are still plenty about. A swap of jockey wheel bolts and jockeys to the narrower 10s type will possibly bring an improved shift with his current RD as well.

FDs - QS should be used with QS, non-QS should be used with non QS, UltraShift with UltraShift etc to get the shift function as intended. There is no triple compatibility in UltraShift - don't be fooled by the "extra" clicks. There are issues wirh composite inner levers and FDs with inadequate throw which can lead to premature failure of the inner lever.

None of the last generation of 10s Triple RDs (discontinued for MY2015) will handle a 32 "in theory", however there are cases where they will work OK on a 32 rear - it just depends on the exact frame geometry. If the frame geometry is such that a 32 is usable, though, setting the RD up to do this may compromise cleanliness of shift at the other end of the cassette.

Sorry, a bit long but that's the full story ...

HTH
Graeme
Velotech, UK Main Campagnolo SC
Head Technician and Director, Velotech Cycling Ltd,
Nationwide modular mechanic's training in all bicycle types
Campagnolo's main factory-appointed UK Technical and Service Centre

mattsccm
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby mattsccm » 25 Oct 2014, 12:02pm

Thanks a lot.
A couple of specific points.
"Chorus, Record, Comp and Racing T - full compatibility with any 10s Ergo but maybe some durability issues with Escape and PowerShit lever internals."
That may explain why the plastic dogs on the upshift button in my Veloce RHS Ergo died after perhaps 15,000 miles .

"Pre 2000 RDs have a Shimano-type B screw adjuster & won't work with current Ergos unless the lever is modified."
The joy of Campag. Every theory can be wrong. Mine, on another bike are fine. No idea why. That's why I use the stuff.
The bike the new shifters are aimed for is currently running, as a stop gap, 8 speed Record Ergos, a 9 speed Comp triple rear mech and a 8 speed Shimano cassette. Seems fine to me. I did run an early Super Record mech but it couldn't cope with the 32 tooth biggest cog. :cry: Now if I could find a longer mech hanger...... :wink:
Time for some nice new Ergos then.

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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby Mick F » 25 Oct 2014, 9:11pm

mattsccm wrote: ...... Time for some nice new Ergos then.
I'll keep my Chorus pre-QS Ergos going as long as I can get the parts to keep them going, but if they bite the dust, they're going in the bin and I'll fit my friction down-tube levers.

My 10sp triple works very well indeed with friction DT levers ...... because I've tried it.
Mick F. Cornwall

123malford
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Postby 123malford » 26 Oct 2014, 10:05am

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Last edited by 123malford on 27 Oct 2014, 9:30am, edited 2 times in total.