What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Pedals ?

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 8 Feb 2015, 9:13pm

Hi,
Mick F wrote:
What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Pedals ?
You become part of the bike.
You become a piece of the whole.
Man and machine in complete harmony.

All hot air :D :D :D
Just don't forget the knee pain thingummy.....................
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby kwackers » 8 Feb 2015, 9:22pm

foxyrider wrote:Most peoples issues with step in pedals seem to relate to confidence and poor set up.

Or perhaps they don't offer the advantages people claim???
I bought some years ago fully expecting them to be good. I put up with their foibles and the occasional 'near miss' for a while, the stupid shoes that are uncomfortable for normal walking (I hate shoes anyway) and instead looked forward to the touted advantages.
What actually happened is I made notes of the time it would do me on my commute (15 miles each way) and discovered that they made no obvious difference and about the only advantage I could see is slightly better acceleration off the mark.
Against that I really detested having my feet fixed, I like to change position on the bike all the time and that includes moving my feet around, changing their angles etc.

As for the other so called advantages, turns out most of them simply don't stand up to scrutiny so imo what it really boils down to is personal preference and anecdotes.

Incidentally the only real accident I ever with them was when I needed to leave the bike in a rush, I'd auto-magically unclipped and tried to jump clear only to have the pedals reclip themselves as I pushed away.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 8 Feb 2015, 9:24pm

Hi,
foxyrider wrote:advantages
smoother pedalling action
improved safety

disadvantages
?

Falling off - inability to unclip reliably.
Knee pain - Just how do you set them up staticly for dynamic use :?:
Lack of sole support across the whole width of foot - Hot foot.................
Looks cool........................ :?

foxyrider wrote:Most peoples issues with step in pedals seem to relate to confidence and poor set up. I struggle to ride more than a few yards without being clipped in. I used toeclips for many years (and have the scars to prove it!) but eventually gave in and started using step ins. I've been using them for @ 25 years now and whilst the original 'fixed' cleats could be an issue with knee rotation, the 'multi release' spd cleats and extra float road cleats have pretty much sorted that out, setting the spring tension correctly for you is important. My commute bikes have lower tension than my 'performance' machines, in fact my carbon play thing has fixed tension pedals but with extra float cleats its no more difficult to disengage. The issue of release in a fall - well if set correctly you should be free of the bike almost as soon as things go awry.

They do provide more efficiency in your pedalling on action, you can push and pull for a full 360 degrees, you lose @ 90 degrees with toe clips and flat pedals give @ 160 degrees of useful stroke giving a jerky action.

Most leisure (as opposed to road race style) shoes use a recessed cleat fixing so you can walk unhindered in the shoes.

Regardless of your riding you can benefit from using step ins but much like any 'new' technology, power looms, steam engines, aeroplanes, integrated shifters - there will be people who will argue against them based on, well usually little or no direct evidence for their arguments. Step in pedals are not always appropriate, toe clips can be useful on multi use bikes but much like drop bars and tyres with enough air not everyone wants to get the advantages as everyone else is clearly wrong.


So where is the technical information that supports all this efficiency :?:
Forgetting your and even mine personal opinions............show us the evidence.......................not.................

This jerky non 360 power............even the pro's don't do 360 power, think about the muscles that you need to pull up ?
How small they are.......................

Show US the evidence...........just because the club racers and pro's do it.........................
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aljohn
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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby aljohn » 8 Feb 2015, 9:54pm

I joined a cycling club when I was 13 and a couple of years later all us young bloods had toe clips on our bikes. When I bought a track bike and rode fixed I used toe clips, shoe plates and, very tight, straps.Many years later I bought a used Somec cycle fitted with Look pedals, bought shoes and cleats to match. I still faff about clipping in at times but I think they're brilliant and would never give them up. I could easily use toe clips as before with no problem - just as I could easily use downtube gear levers. You just get used to using them - if you want to..... Actually, if you try riding down long, steepish hills on a fixed, then you need clips or cleats. Or use your brakes, but where's the fun in that? I was always brought up on the black art of ankling, then an American (would be, wouldn't it?) article reckoned that slow motion film of pros in action showed them just shoving their feet up and down as hard as they could, with no ankling being seen at all... dunno if they were right.... just my two pennorth - please feel free to disagree if you do then I think you're mistaken :lol:

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby Vorpal » 8 Feb 2015, 9:56pm

I don't get on with clipless. I've tried several times. Anyway, I often ride someplace to go for a walk, and rather wear my comfy walking boots 8)
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gregoryoftours
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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby gregoryoftours » 8 Feb 2015, 10:14pm

There are advantages and disadvantages to clipless, they are not imaginary. Whether or not they work for you or you like them is another matter, but it's not all smoke and mirrors.

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Knee pain - Just how do you set them up staticly for dynamic use :?:
Lack of sole support across the whole width of foot - Hot foot.................


Cleats are adjustable in position and angle, taking some time to set this up can eliminate knee pain. For me I changed to a brand that has more free play which eliminated knee pain. All clipless systems have some amount of free play. Some people might not be able to use them without knee pain in which case they are not a good idea.

The whole point of road shoes is that the sole is very rigid so the pressure is spread evenly over the entire sole even thought the contact area with the pedal is relatively small. If there are hot spots then it's a sign of bad shoe fitting. I get a bit of hot spot sometimes with mtb cleats (which I use on road) because the soles are less rigid on spd shoes, but I also get similar discomfort using flats sometimes- most flat pedals aren't completely flat, and most shoes aren't completely flat, and most peoples' feet aren't flat.

Most pro downhill mountain bikers use clipless and don't have any difficulty dis-engaging very quickly when they need to, and when they crash you don't see the bike stuck to their feet either. I don't use clipless for mountain biking because I don't feel like I can unclip fast enough, but that's me.

Mostly I ride flats because I like wearing 'normal' shoes and being able to walk about easily, and it's also nice to be able to move your feet about sometimes. Call me a style hoo-er, but I think most spd shoes look pretty awful too. Longer road rides I wear spd shoes because for me it is more comfortable, and I can and do pull on the upstroke. You can get quite a bit of force on the upstroke, it's not just your hamstring pulling, just as it's not only your bicep doing the lifting when you pick something heavy up.

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby fastpedaller » 8 Feb 2015, 10:19pm

Years ago I used the old toe clips and straps (this was in the days when you nailed the cleats on!). On one occasion I sprinted and pulled the nailed plate straight off the shoe :oops: . Then we had adjustable cleats (just a slotted bit of plastic, but adjustable) and that was much better, and I used those for the next 20 years or so. When my shoes fell apart :lol: I reluctantly went over to SPD's......... Wish I'd done it years ago! Yes I fell off 3 times, but not on the first journey when I was consciously thinking PEDALS, PEDALS, PEDALS, but on the second one, when all those years of pulling the foot back took over!.
I've only once pulled my foot out when using SPD's for the last 4 years - On the old slotted cleats I'd do it at least once a week.
I was instructed (by Phil Bayton of all people) to set up so the cleat is 90 degrees to the inside 'edge' of the shoe (this was in the days of the slotted cleat, but I've used the same with SPD), works for me :D , but I guess may not for everyone.

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby kwackers » 8 Feb 2015, 10:37pm

gregoryoftours wrote:and I can and do pull on the upstroke. You can get quite a bit of force on the upstroke, it's not just your hamstring pulling, just as it's not only your bicep doing the lifting when you pick something heavy up.

In short bursts you *may* be able to pull up and get a bit more power. On long runs there's no point, you may as well simply develop your quads more and keep the forces down in the way your legs are designed to work. The limit is the amount of oxygen you can get to the legs to power whatever muscles you've got.
Further, every attempt to measure this so called 'pulling up' has always shown it to be a myth, turns out other than in short bursts when you 'pull up' you're barely taking the weight off your leg, let alone providing any 'real' power.

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby Brucey » 8 Feb 2015, 10:41pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:
disadvantages
a) Falling off - inability to unclip reliably.
b) Knee pain - Just how do you set them up staticly for dynamic use :?:
c)Lack of sole support across the whole width of foot - Hot foot.


a) learning this is less difficult (by far) than working out you need to put your feet down when you stop in the first place, and you managed that, right....? It is just a question of doing it slightly differently.

b) choose your system carefully if you need float (and you will usually know this already if you look at your shoes because they will be marked up already). Most systems can be set by trial and error easily enough but with a good fitting process it should be RFT.

c) I've never seen a 'foot shaped pedal'. You need a shoe.... and yes, with some pedals (flats, clipped, clipless yes any type) you need a stiffer sole than with others. Don't buy shoes with soles that are not stiff enough!

Many of the arguments for flats (over clips/clipless) sound very similar to those you could make if you (say) decided it was pointless having bar tape (you don't need that, how often do you pull on the bars... etc etc).

Many of the arguments against clipless pedals are exactly the same as those which used to be used against clips and straps. Despite all these terrible things most people who rode a bike any distance and/or at any speed used clips and straps back then just as they still use those or clipless now. So if people have been 'drinking toe-clip/clipless kool-aid' then it has been popular for a long time; at least 100 years....

Make of that what you will; I don't think it is either accidental or pointless.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby MikeF » 8 Feb 2015, 11:10pm

kwackers wrote:
gregoryoftours wrote:and I can and do pull on the upstroke. You can get quite a bit of force on the upstroke, it's not just your hamstring pulling, just as it's not only your bicep doing the lifting when you pick something heavy up.

In short bursts you *may* be able to pull up and get a bit more power. On long runs there's no point, you may as well simply develop your quads more and keep the forces down in the way your legs are designed to work. The limit is the amount of oxygen you can get to the legs to power whatever muscles you've got.
Further, every attempt to measure this so called 'pulling up' has always shown it to be a myth, turns out other than in short bursts when you 'pull up' you're barely taking the weight off your leg, let alone providing any 'real' power.
Occasionally I have a slight pain in my left knee (many years of using a Land Rover clutch maybe?? or just age??). To ease it I find it very useful to be able to pull up with the right leg, so I don't push down so hard with the left. Also pulling up uses different muscles - always beneficial. You can do that with clips or cleats, but with flats there's no choice but to push.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby gregoryoftours » 8 Feb 2015, 11:15pm

kwackers wrote:In short bursts you *may* be able to pull up and get a bit more power. On long runs there's no point, you may as well simply develop your quads more and keep the forces down in the way your legs are designed to work. The limit is the amount of oxygen you can get to the legs to power whatever muscles you've got.
Further, every attempt to measure this so called 'pulling up' has always shown it to be a myth, turns out other than in short bursts when you 'pull up' you're barely taking the weight off your leg, let alone providing any 'real' power.

I spend quite a lot of time out of the saddle on quite steep hills that I find it uncomfortable and slow to grind up. I definitely pull, in short bursts quite hard, but also over longer periods with less but not negligible force. I'm a decent climber and also enjoy this style of riding so for me it works. I do have quite a low cadence and it's definitely a part of the reason I can pull effectively. Sometimes I wonder if spinning more would be better for my knees in the long run, although I do get bored churning away stuck on the saddle.

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby mjr » 8 Feb 2015, 11:29pm

MikeF wrote:Advantages of clips (and clipless):-
a) if you stop with one foot on the ground you can easily pull up the other pedal to a good position to start again. Without clips you need to put your toe under the pedal to pull it up or some other faff so you can't start as quickly or easily as you want eg at a junction.

After years watching people, I feel that's a bit of a myth. You'd either need to be so confident that you'll get the balance correct that you don't need to unclip both feet (else if the road slopes the other way or something, you'll be wanting to put down the foot that's still clipped in - crash!), or you'll need to reclip while stopped which seems at least as much faff as kicking a pedal back round - or putting your toe under if you don't care for your shoe shine.

Anyway, on the rare occasion you stop with the pedals in a daft position, if you only put one foot down, you can just push off with the standing food and start the pedals spinning suboptimally for a change. I know it's not what is taught, but it is possible to do it without wobbling with a bit of practice.
b) if you go over a violent bump your foot won't "fly" off the pedal as can sometimes happen. This can cause unintentional wobble or worse.

It's possible to involuntarily unclip over a violent bump, isn't it? Plus there's also a chance of pulling something as a consequence of the foot being attached if you weren't expecting the bump.
c) you won't be able to pedal with your instep or point your feet in twisted directions (which I've seen some cyclists do).

Yes, that might be one reason for them. It's much rarer than the numbers clipping in, though.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby Mick F » 9 Feb 2015, 5:32am

Knee pain?????
Don't make me laugh.

Adjust the cleats. They have float too !!!! :lol:

Back in the old days, I had clips and straps and my feet were held solidly into the pedals because I had slotted cleats on my shoes that engaged with the back plate of the pedals. I mean SOLIDLY. Unless I released the straps BEFORE I stopped, I'd fall sideways.

Clipless allow a deft flick of the ankle, and you're out.

Any problem with knees is to do with incorrect setup, not the pedals.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby rfryer » 9 Feb 2015, 7:02am

Mick F wrote:Knee pain?????
Don't make me laugh.

Adjust the cleats. They have float too !!!! :lol:

Any problem with knees is to do with incorrect setup, not the pedals.

Not strictly true - some clipless systems are better than others.

I use Speedplays on my best bike, which have lots of float, and no knee pain. On my other bikes I use SPDs, which have limited float, limited ability to angle the cleat, and regular, dull knee pain.

However, after reading this thread last night I discovered (and ordered) Speedplay Frogs, which fit SPD shoes but have float, so I'm hoping for a knee-pain-free future.

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Re: What Are The Benefits Of Attaching Your Feet To The Peda

Postby Mick F » 9 Feb 2015, 7:04am

rfryer wrote:Not strictly true - some clipless systems are better than others.
So buy good ones then.

You can't say that clipless pedals are bad for knees, because they aren't.
Mick F. Cornwall