Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Post Reply
RobC
Posts: 146
Joined: 5 Feb 2008, 3:27pm

Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by RobC »

Hello, it's another one of those posts about rejigging old bikes.

My dad's (formerly his dad's) late 60s Holdsworth hangs forlornly on his garage wall, unused. There's a fair amount of surface rust on the chainstays which needs addressing and the paintjob as a whole is pretty tired. It has always had a SA 3 speed which seems unusual because all of the Holdsworth catalogues I can find from that era are derailleur bikes. I know however that my grandpa was never a fan of derailleurs so I guess he had it built up this way?

My sisters (their money, we're budgeting c. £500) and I (my labour) are planning in surprising dad on his 70th birthday with a revamped bike suitable for his current needs: round town and along the towpath, the occasional day ride on the roads. He claims he doesn't really like drop bars any more but I reckon keeping the drops and fitting some proper interrupter levers (not sure of the right word) on the horizontal would be the best of both worlds because he would be able to vary his hand position more than if he just had uprights. I would like to give him a nice wide range of gears because he struggles a bit on the hills these days.

At the moment I'm 200 miles away from the thing so I'm just mulling over a few things in my head. A few questions:

- what is the the OLD likely to be? 120mm?
- can I get a modern internal gear hub that will fit 120mm or would it be best to cold set it out further? Which would be best?
- what would be the best use of £500?

Looking forward to your wisdom.
Rob
robc02
Posts: 1824
Joined: 23 Apr 2009, 7:12pm
Location: Stafford

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by robc02 »

A number of Sturmey Archer hubs are available with 117mm overlocknut (OLN) dimensions (E.g. SRF3, AW). SRF3 is also listed with 108mm OLN. It is a simple matter to add (or remove) washers to adjust this - subject to having sufficient axle length, of course.

An old frame probably had OLN 120mm when new. Traditionally SA OLNs were 111 (or was it 108?) and 117 or thereabouts, so there is a good chance that the frame was either used with a 117mm hub or was set for a narrower one. Either way, you should be able to fit a 3, 4 or 5 speed SA hub without cold setting the frame.

Oldbike trader (http://www.oldbiketrader.co.uk/) supplies SA products, both old and new and is very knowledgeable.
AM7
Posts: 362
Joined: 18 Jul 2014, 10:24pm
Location: North West Essex

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by AM7 »

On a frame with 120mm OLN, a Sturmey wide range 5 speed hub would probably be the easiest plug and play IGH solution for a reasonable spread of gears. Sturmey also make an 8 speed hub with a 120mm OLN, but the hub gears up from first which means on a bike with 26" or 27" wheels you need a tiny chainwheel and large rear sprocket to get a decent gear range. As robc02 says, Derek at Oldbiketrader is your man for all things Sturmey Archer.

Another option might a Shimano Nexus 8, which ships with an OLN of ~132mm but can alledgedly be respaced down to around 120mm without too much drama.
Thomas125
Posts: 411
Joined: 23 Sep 2008, 6:50pm
Location: Telford, West Midlands

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by Thomas125 »

I'm no expert on spacing but I recently bough an 8 speed alfine hub bike on the work cycle scheme.

I commute in hilly shropshire and the gear spread is nice. First and second are plenty low enough to tackle even steep hills. I've got a 20t alfine sprocket and a 38t truativ chainring on it. Gives a good range and you can still pedal up to a decent speed on the downhills if you want to.

I think Shimano only make flat bar shifters for these but you can get aftermarket dropbar shifters.

Get some pics up when you get to the bike, and good luck. :mrgreen:
Was 93.4kg now 78.3kg

Next target 74.0kg

"Life is one long bike ride" :-)
AM7
Posts: 362
Joined: 18 Jul 2014, 10:24pm
Location: North West Essex

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by AM7 »

The Alfine 8 comes only in 135mm spacing IIRC, but the Nexus 8 uses the gear ratios and the latest version is by all accounts very similar to the Alfine.
Brucey
Posts: 44517
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by Brucey »

if you are spending £500 on the bike it has to be

-paint
-wheels
-brakes
-other stuff.

If it is an orange Holdsworth then I have found that VW signal orange is not a bad match.

Another hub that can be spaced down pretty well is the Nexus 7.

Mad thought; why not add a second sprocket to the SA hub and have a six-speed setup (a bit like they use on Bromptons)?

For brakes if you have a set of centre pulls then they can be fettled back to GWO. But on Holdsworths of that period a lot of them had quite long reach brakes even on 27" wheels. These frames end up being super-gappy with 700C wheels in them.

Sounds like an interesting project that.

BTW if you want to go 'period correct' you could use an SA 5s (or converted 4s) hub configured with a pushrod on the LH side. If you set that up with about 67" in 4th this will give a top gear of 79" and a bottom gear of 35".

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RobC
Posts: 146
Joined: 5 Feb 2008, 3:27pm

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by RobC »

Thanks a lot for the advice, plenty to think about.

The frame is dark blue with black bands.

On reflection I think grandpa must have just bought the frame and built up the rest from what he had lying around, because I'm pretty sure the brakes are old steel calipers, which I doubt would have been specced with a Holdsworth of that era from new?

Anyway once I've got my stepmum to sneak it out of the house for me (hopefully dad won't notice because he rarely goes in the garage at the end of the garden, his workshop's in the cellar) I'll be able to get a closer look.
700c
Posts: 535
Joined: 5 Jul 2007, 6:49pm

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by 700c »

RobC - I cant't offer any advice, but I would be very interested to see before and after photo's (and maybe some in-between photo's too) if possible...
Freddie
Posts: 2519
Joined: 12 Jan 2008, 12:01pm

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by Freddie »

A few questions, does your dad want hub gears? If you stick with drops you may have to bodge the shifter attachment, unless you want period equipment.

If he is only going to go on short jaunts, maybe you should stick riser/swept back bars on. There is nothing wrong with drop bars, but if he doesn't want them/isn't accustomed to them, why not stick with what he knows? This will make it easier to fit modern shifters as well.
LuckyLuke
Posts: 374
Joined: 10 Jun 2010, 11:54am

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by LuckyLuke »

Re hub gears & drop bars,
I have used this Thorn T bar plus a shim, mounted on the stalk of a 1" stem.
To this I mounted a Nexus 8 revoshifter. Worked really well.

Thorn T bar.jpg
robc02
Posts: 1824
Joined: 23 Apr 2009, 7:12pm
Location: Stafford

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by robc02 »

The traditional way to mount the shifter is like this:

Image


Here is the complete bike:

Image
Brucey
Posts: 44517
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by Brucey »

if the rider doesn't use the drops much then I'd suggest mounting the shifter on/near the stem/tops.

This
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brompton-extension-bracket-for-fitting-batflam-m-type-handlebar-prod13669/

will clamp to the stem (the 7/8" upright or the extension if it is a sensible size) and this

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/genetic-neuron-accessory-bar-prod37035/

or similar will clamp to the bar itself.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RobC
Posts: 146
Joined: 5 Feb 2008, 3:27pm

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by RobC »

Thanks again for the advice, lots to think about. I've got my siblings to pledge enough money to get this project going.

Dad is fine with drop bars (we went on a long tandem tour last year and he was captain for most of it, with drop bars, aero brake levers, and bar end shifters), but he does like to vary his hand position and having the interrupter levers would help with that, particularly in traffic I think. If this bike is going to be an all rounder then I want him to be happy to use it around town too.

So I'm moving towards the SA S-RF5 5 speed, with a bar end shifter. With a front ring of 42 and rear sprocket of 21 teeth, according to sheldon brown this will give an 'on the flat' 72 gear inches in 4th gear and 1st gear of 33.8 for the hills, which seems reasonable? The OLN of this hub is 119mm so it should fit right in.

Will update more once the bike's been 'stolen' from the garage (with a note left in its place so he doesn't freak out if he happens to go in there!) and I've got to work on it.
AM7
Posts: 362
Joined: 18 Jul 2014, 10:24pm
Location: North West Essex

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by AM7 »

I've got wide range Sturmey 5 speeds on a couple of my bikes set up with a similar gear range to what you are suggesting and it works fine for me.

A word of caution about the bar end shifter - the detents are rather vague so you have to be careful shifting. Brucey has commented in detail on this previously - see here. I prefer the plastic. Nimbus shifter, which admittedly is fugly by comparison but does the job okay.
RobC
Posts: 146
Joined: 5 Feb 2008, 3:27pm

Re: Tarting up old Holdsworth. Hub gear advice?

Post by RobC »

Quick update to this - I now have the bike.

It's a mistral model and the frame number is 30524. Does anyone know how to date this?

I'm stripping it of components today and will be taking it to be resprayed tomorrow. The chainstays are quite rusty but hopefully not too far gone. I'm hoping they will be able to advise me if its saveable!
Post Reply