Gearing and chain line conundrum.

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stevew
Posts: 491
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:36pm
Location: Orpington, Kent.

Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by stevew »

Working on a friends rather nice Enigma and we have had shifting probs from the start. Must say straight away that this is in NO way Enigma's fault.
Bike was built up from a bare frame and gearing set up was 2x10. 11-36 sram mtb rear mech, 42/28 front chain ring assy. This gave the lady the sort of range she wanted but the MTB front double is too far out from the BB to give consistent shifting at the front when the chain is at the extream on the rear.

Pics;-

First here is the general set up showing the BB and all the relevant bits.
Image
Image

Now here is the chain line with the chain at the top and bottom rear sprockets
Image
Image

Straight bar bike using all sram.
What i would like to do is to fit a (small in chainwheel size) double or triple that will move the chain line to a more central position. Reckon it needs to go in about 10mm but that a guess by eyeing it up, not measuring it.
Main thing i need is to keep that 28/36 low :wink:

Thoughts please :?
1999 ICE Classic NT
Fort s/s
Brompton
26" Thorn (converted to E-Bike)
The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity. Robert Anthony
Brucey
Posts: 44705
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Brucey »

bound to happen if you use an MTB chainset on a 130mm rear hub....

I would suggest getting a middleburn chainset or something like that (a Spa triple with the outside ring missing?), but there will be knock-ons eg the front mech may have to go....

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
stevew
Posts: 491
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:36pm
Location: Orpington, Kent.

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by stevew »

Yeah the idea of a triple would be OK and don't really mind if i have to change the mech and the shifter. Suppose if i left off the big chain ring i may well be able to keep the shifter. Sram and Shimano pull the same amount of cable on the front mechs don't they ?

BTW i didn't build this...............was someone else's mish mash !!
Last edited by stevew on 13 May 2015, 10:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
1999 ICE Classic NT
Fort s/s
Brompton
26" Thorn (converted to E-Bike)
The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity. Robert Anthony
Brucey
Posts: 44705
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Brucey »

yes I think you can use a shimano (MTN?) front mech with the sram shifter but best to check and be sure.

The problem with the extant front mech (and many other MTN mechs) is that it mightn't go inwards far enough to get onto the inner ring, once you have a chainset with a 'road' chainline.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
stevew
Posts: 491
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:36pm
Location: Orpington, Kent.

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by stevew »

That's OK as i have a few front mechs here off road bikes, one of them should be OK.
1999 ICE Classic NT
Fort s/s
Brompton
26" Thorn (converted to E-Bike)
The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity. Robert Anthony
Brucey
Posts: 44705
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Brucey »

if they have the right cable pull to match the shifter....

IIRC if you extend the arm on a road front mech you can sometimes make it work OK with a fully indexed MTN style cable pull shifter.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Valbrona
Posts: 2700
Joined: 7 Feb 2011, 4:49pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Valbrona »

I would not try and fit any 'MTB specific' crankset, and I would convert to triple. And then it doesn't matter if the rider does not use the biggest ring.

Two small chainrings on an MTB chainset was a nice idea, but this tends not to work on a road bike. Road specific triple cranksets are typically 130/74BCD, but if you used a 110/74BCD road triple you could get a smaller middle ring on it than the 38t middle you are limited to with 130/74BCD.

Lots of faffin' around though ...
I should coco.
Tortoise
Posts: 84
Joined: 3 Jan 2008, 2:28pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Tortoise »

stevew - just curious, because I'd mused about using that sort of idea myself, but I wonder if you could expand a bit as to exactly what the problem is? Is it that the chainline when on the 28t/36t is too skewed and causes rubbing on the inner cage plate? Or is it that the cage doesn't throw left hard enough to dislodge the chain off the 42t ring? Or do you just want the line from the chainrings generally nearer the middle of the rear cluster? You say that you'd like to move the chainline at the front in by some 10mm, which seems quite a lot to me. What am I missing?
stevew
Posts: 491
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:36pm
Location: Orpington, Kent.

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by stevew »

Tortoise wrote:stevew - just curious, because I'd mused about using that sort of idea myself, but I wonder if you could expand a bit as to exactly what the problem is? Is it that the chainline when on the 28t/36t is too skewed and causes rubbing on the inner cage plate? Or is it that the cage doesn't throw left hard enough to dislodge the chain off the 42t ring? Or do you just want the line from the chainrings generally nearer the middle of the rear cluster? You say that you'd like to move the chainline at the front in by some 10mm, which seems quite a lot to me. What am I missing?


If you adjust the front mech (with the chain on the 36 rear) to lift on to the 42 front it will over shift when it's on the 11 :(
No matter how hard you try and how much you fiddle it won't word consistently.

The 10mm was a guess, have a look at the 3rd picture down and you will see that the 11 on the rear lines up with the 42 on the front. My reckoning is that it should lining up somewhere in middle if the cassette.
1999 ICE Classic NT
Fort s/s
Brompton
26" Thorn (converted to E-Bike)
The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity. Robert Anthony
Brucey
Posts: 44705
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Brucey »

the combination of an MTB chainset and a 130mm rear end produces a chainline 'error' (difference) vs a 'road' chainset and a 135mm hub that is at least 5mm. Factor in then that the chainline wouldn't have been optimum anyway, and a change of 10mm seems appealing. It isn't always possible though; often the limiting factor is getting the front mech to come leftwards far enough.

For touring I usually favour having the chainline set leftwards almost as far as I can get it, because this gives a better run onto the low gears which you can spend most time in, climbing mountain passes etc.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
stevew
Posts: 491
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:36pm
Location: Orpington, Kent.

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by stevew »

Suppose i use this
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-tiagra- ... -chainset/
Going to keep very near the gearing i want (30 instead of 28)

Will a Sram MTB (flat bar and therefore indexed) triple changer work with a Shimano triple road front mech?
If so that would be good because the bike has a Sram 10 speed mtb changer on the right. Would keep things consistent.
If not i'll have to have odd shifters on each side :(

BTW gonna talk to Middleburn too 'cos that may work with their compact "touring" chainset RO1. Have to change the BB though.
1999 ICE Classic NT
Fort s/s
Brompton
26" Thorn (converted to E-Bike)
The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity. Robert Anthony
User avatar
recordacefromnew
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Dec 2012, 3:17pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by recordacefromnew »

stevew wrote:Bike was built up from a bare frame and gearing set up was 2x10. 11-36 sram mtb rear mech, 42/28 front chain ring assy. This gave the lady the sort of range she wanted but the MTB front double is too far out from the BB to give consistent shifting at the front when the chain is at the extream on the rear.
...

Straight bar bike using all sram.
What i would like to do is to fit a (small in chainwheel size) double or triple that will move the chain line to a more central position. Reckon it needs to go in about 10mm but that a guess by eyeing it up, not measuring it.
Main thing i need is to keep that 28/36 low :wink:

Thoughts please :?


I don't believe the 130mm rear hub is the issue. The large rear sprocket being 2mm further inboard is the sole difference on a 130mm vs 135mm hub. Given the chainstay is around 400mm, the chance of the 2mm being "noticed" geometrically and therefore mechanically up front, and therefore being the cause of the OP's problem, has to be practically nil, especially given we are talking about a double without the extra 4mm extremes of a triple, and that mtb doubles/triples shift fine.

The more likely cause of the problem is incompatibility between front mech and chainset, assuming the difficulty arose from chainline design difference.

Since it is easy to do, I would firstly measure the front chainline - it should be very close to 50mm.

While the chainset is recognisable as a current X9, 2x10, 42/28 GXP, which is designed to work perfectly with various current sram standard X series double front mechs, I can't detect from the pics what the front mech model is, perhaps it is a road mech, albeit many other possible reasons exist for a poor front shift.

The document below might help:

https://www.sram.com/sites/default/file ... ions_0.pdf

If it is a road front mech, the problem of moving to a standard Shimano road triple is that they typically have a larger small ring, and sram road mechs are never triples.
Tortoise
Posts: 84
Joined: 3 Jan 2008, 2:28pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Tortoise »

OK, so if I understand it correctly, when it’s on the 11t at the back, a change from the inner 28t to the outer 42t ring results in the chain dropping outboard of the big ring? If this is the problem then I agree with recordacefromnew - it’s not due to the mismatch between an MTB crankset and a 130mm rear end.

A triple usually has a 45mm chainline on its middle ring and something like 49mm on its outer. The cluster on a 130mm rear is only 2.5mm further in than on a 135mm rear end. I think the chainline on a standard SRAM MTB double front is 49.5mm. So the cumulative offset inherent in your arrangement, compared with a matching 130mm road group , is only about 3mm, give or take.

Assuming the front mech is in fact a compatible match with the crankset and it looks right from the photos, it should be possible to trim the High position limit screw to prevent the chain dropping outboard of the big ring in any circumstances. Usually, the problem when this is done is that the chain rubs the inside of the cage when in big/11t top gear. In your case, with the chainrings a bit further out than normal, this problem should be less likely.

In fact, with it set up as you have it, I should have expected your problem to have been that if you set the front mech so it moves left enough to derail the chain onto the inner ring, it overthrows it to the inside of the ‘ring and if you set the inner limit screw to resist this, it doesn’t move far enough to get the chain off the big ring. In which case the usual remedy is to set the throw wide enough to work but then fit a robust chaincatcher to guide the chain onto the inner ring.

Or am I still on the wrong wavelength? :oops:
Brucey
Posts: 44705
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by Brucey »

I think you have a point, when the problem was first mentioned I though it was the shift from bottom gear to the large-large combination that caused the trouble...

Looking at the pictures I'd suggest that the front mech may be set slightly too 'tail out'. Some front mechs work best like this but not all do.... it might work better with a little adjustment; it can't hurt to try...?

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
stevew
Posts: 491
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:36pm
Location: Orpington, Kent.

Re: Gearing and chain line conundrum.

Post by stevew »

Been there, done that !!

Waiting for Middleburn's reaction. Think they may have the answer with one of their 'touring' chainsets.
Either this
http://www.middleburn.co.uk/products/cr ... pe-touring
Or this with a new BB
http://www.middleburn.co.uk/products/cr ... 01-touring
1999 ICE Classic NT
Fort s/s
Brompton
26" Thorn (converted to E-Bike)
The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity. Robert Anthony
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