Advice: English touring frame 70s-80s style - new or used

[hujev]

Keeping the thread going - because I'm still looking!

I've given up on Bob Jackson as their 'world tourist' frames seems to be more 'sport touring' geometry, plus trying to get specs, etc. on their items is too hard and the website is so wonky (I was excited when I saw they had a 650b WT, but turns out it's just an old, abandoned page still there - and geez, their 'color' jpegs are like early Soviet photos of Venus!).

I like the idea of smaller 1-person operations; I'm working on trying to get ahold of Steve Goff, Dave Baillie, and a few others. Also in communication with Woodrup (~8 month lead time!); Mercian never answered a few inquiries.

It's nice to know that the few traditional builders left are so busy - maybe that's why the ones who haven't been doing it so long want to charge so much! (esp. in the US!).

Looks like my idea of getting something by Mid-September is fading, and I'll look forward to a 2016 tour on something English... but I could always tour this fall on my somewhat shimmy-ey LHT, or better, my beautiful 1984 Univega Gran Turismo! I guess they call these '1st world problems' on the web...

[hujev]

Thought I'd post the follow-up 'results' for this - in the end I decided to have Kevin Sayles at Woordup build me the frame since he was most enthusiastic and of course is well-known for good work for decades now. So went all out, spec'd various 'me-specific' braze-ons, chainstay length, use and loading style, lug preference, etc. and let Kevin tell me the rest.

After the inevitable wait, discussions, planning, etc. it's now finished! He made some pictures during the build and just the other day after the painting (I asked for a 'not seen since the '70s colour!). See here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevin_sayles_bikes/sets/72157662464130423

It'll be a while yet before I get it in real life (and won't be able to build up & ride until end of year or so), but I keep looking at the pictures!

[Samuel D]

Very, very cool.

But are you planning to carry a pump for each wheel?

And what’s the little protrusion on the back of the head tube, just above the top tube?

[greyingbeard]

Nice !
as previous, what are the extras ?
I guess the shiny bits on lower head lug as rubbing strips to prevent cables chafing paint.

[CREPELLO]

He made some pictures during the build and just the other day after the painting (I asked for a 'not seen since the '70s colour!)

That is indeed a nearly extinct type of 1970's gold paint. My dad had a 1979 Ford Cortina in that exact shade.

[hujev]

Yes, I was originally thinking dark green until I realized all bespoke touring bikes are requested in that colour, so then was aiming for a greenish-yellow (like say a 1971 Raleigh International), but happy with this result as well.

I supplied a few old ~1965-75 bicycle pix of interest along with a few car photos too... more of a 'feeling' of the color than an actual specified colo(u)r itself. In the 'feeling sheet' (to invent a term) of the color (snap attached of the actual item) I also supplied a picture of a 1971 Camaro, an early 70s Cadillac or whatever, an Alfa, a bug, etc. but no Cortina (there's a limit to what I could find searching colour by theme after all!). I sort of told Kevin to use his judgement! I like the 'fate' of the color vs. specifying some swatch - all this by uncorrected monitors and web-found images of course! (plus I can't just drop in to look at the samples, and surely it can't be less precise than the awful 'swatches' on the Bob Jackson website.)

Pump peg - I had him add the one on the HT as 'backup' in case, but the behind the ST one is my favo(u)rite - dig the way he added a couple small bars behind the BB for at he bottom-fit of my usual Zefal HPX.

The bugle-y-looking bits (which I think look like something from Dr. Seuss pictures) on the HT and back of the ST are not precisely defined (but I'm a fan of mysterious braze-ons). The one on the HT I'm thinking maybe as an odometer/'cyclometer' mount (but not i-phone or GPS; sure don't need komputers staring at me on tour!), and the one on the back of the ST was thinking maybe as mount for a small toolkit, or something to utilize the space in that area... (originally considered a whiskey flask cage, but that can as well go in the saddlebag).

The single small 'bottle boss' under the TT near the HT is intended as a fastener for a 'snapshot camera holster' (I'm thinking a strap around the tube, held in place by a screw, with the holster on the side). On my last tour I found myself always fiddling with great danger trying to fish my little digi- or film camera out of the handlebar bag for 'on the spot on the road' pix and thought having it right there would be handy. I carried two snapshot cameras (one digi & one film) and one Contax G1 35mm camera on that last tour fall 2015 - I like photography!

The fork braze-ons are Kevin's invention instead of fork-end eyelets (the 2 lower) and a lowrider rack mount (the upper). Planning to use a Nitto 34f, by the way.

It's also got under the bridge and fork crown threads for mudguards, and above the bridge and through the crown threads for - whatever.

Somewhere else I wrote (to the same question): "Alternative answer: liquor flask; glass holder; and ashtray, laser guns, oil and nail droppers, de-black anodizer, traffic cams with license plate readers."

And those shiny bits on the edge of the head lug are one of Kevin's favo(u)rite adds; yes, anti-cable-scuff stainless steel runners (or whatever - forgot his term).

Thank goodness I'm pretty standard-proportioned, so hopefully this frame will outlive me to serve future tourist(s) as well and they can wonder 'what the hell' those braze-ons are for...

[Hobbs1951]

HI from new group subscriber in Alaska (but I've read here for ~10 years).

I am interested in buying a ca. 1978-1983 English (or UK) full-on touring frameset, or something newer if built in that same style, so figured I'd ask the English themselves (Scots too, and Welsh, etc.).

I am also considering a newly-built frame of similar style (esp. Bob Jackson), so also ask ideas on UK framebuilders of note making these sorts of frames. I have 1980s Mercian and Woodrup, but in 'sport touring' geometry (years ago I had a mid-60s Dawes that got crinkled in a crash!).

Looking for Reynolds (531 or similar), lugged, long wheelbase, slack angles, heavy duty, braze-ons, etc. The sort of things you'd see in Tim Hughes' excellent books (esp. "Wheels of choice - I'm a fan of his books and photography).

I like late 70s-early 80s bikes - friction shifting, Suntour stuff, brake cables from the tops of the levers, and a quill stem that I can adjust. To me the bikes of the late 70s & early 80s were the best, and the properly-proportioned beauty and functionality of bikes from that era were the peak. Of those, English touring bikes look the best of all!

I dislike modern bikes: click shifting, tigwelding, sloping top tubes and those nuttily long seatposts, and (ugh!) threadless headsets and clamp-on stems! [These ideas ranted on further at: http://rjl.us/velo ]

I need about a 23-24" frame. I am in the US but would buy from the UK if something came up. I don't need the frame until the autumn, when I hope to replace my shimmy-ing Surly LHT frame (built with mostly ca. 1980-84 made or designed stuff though -http://rjl.us/velo/2005LHT.htm).

Anybody have something for sale, know a good source, or have advice on UK builders to look into?

//

robert liebermann, fox alaska
http://rjl.us

I appreciate you now have your frame, but In my opinion you didn't need to buy from England; you could have had your frame from Jeff Lyon Stateside and had the best of both worlds - Jeff worked in England and was apprenticed to the greatest framebuilder of the late 20th century (Bill Philbrook).

I'm fortunate in that I have one of Bill Philbrook's touring frames (1975), super rare and desirable among connoisseurs of fine bicycle frames.

Jeff Lyon is based in Oregon.

If I were you, that's what I would have done - in fact I might buy one of Jeff's frames myself!

Jon.

P.S lovely frame by the way!

[JakobW]

That's just gorgeous.

[colin54]

That's lovely, with the number of extra braze-ons you could call the colour Brazen Bronze.....or maybe not, it looks way classier than that.

Isn't that shade what used to be called ' Old Gold ' ?

Many happy miles when you get it on the road anyway.

I saw another one of his creations last year in Leeds, he makes some lovely stuff.I think this one's got 650b Grand Bois Hetre Tyres on it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/woodrup_c ... 7285138377
Some more of his work here, tempting!

[TheCyclingRooster]

Keeping the thread going - because I'm still looking!

I've given up on Bob Jackson as their 'world tourist' frames seems to be more 'sport touring' geometry, plus trying to get specs, etc. on their items is too hard and the website is so wonky (I was excited when I saw they had a 650b WT, but turns out it's just an old, abandoned page still there - and geez, their 'color' jpegs are like early Soviet photos of Venus!).

I like the idea of smaller 1-person operations; I'm working on trying to get ahold of Steve Goff, Dave Baillie, and a few others. Also in communication with Woodrup (~8 month lead time!); Mercian never answered a few inquiries.

It's nice to know that the few traditional builders left are so busy - maybe that's why the ones who haven't been doing it so long want to charge so much! (esp. in the US!).

Looks like my idea of getting something by Mid-September is fading, and I'll look forward to a 2016 tour on something English... but I could always tour this fall on my somewhat shimmy-ey LHT, or better, my beautiful 1984 Univega Gran Turismo! I guess they call these '1st world problems' on the web...

Hi hujev. Sorry to be so-long before finding this thread but I was researching Steve Goff and came across it.
Did you ever get in touch with him ? I have known Steve for some many years and yes - he is still making his frames and doing repairs in Skelmersdale, He can be difficult to contact but sooner or later he will return a call from an answer-phone message - when he remembers to turn it on !!!
I acquired one of his Columbus tubed frames (Designer Select variant) that had been attacked with a file to enable a 10 speed cassette to be fitted with a 13T sprocket right up against the chain-stay. Silly boy - instead of having the frame increased across the drop-outs.
I had got it for £40.00 and after the repair with Silver Solder and a Braze-on bracket removed the total repair cost was £65.00 - I took it to Gerry Cunningham at C&G Finishes,Liverpool and had it refinishes in Flamboyant Blue (+ original forks) with Chromed Forks and the Steve Goff decals and the Designer Select decals were replaced with a really nice script variation on the original (a bit in your face) block capitals. That entailed a further £150.00 paintwork and the new chromed forks were £65.00.
The bike is almost complete and awaiting a nice sunny day.
If you need any help to contact him then just PM me.

Steve Goff (1).jpg (1.87 KiB) Viewed 799 times

Sterve Goff (2).jpg (1.41 KiB) Viewed 799 times

Steve Goff (3).jpg (1.31 KiB) Viewed 799 times

[JohnW]

..........make sure you specify what you want. My BJ "Audax" didn't have down-tube fixings for the "stops". Just in case you wanted to fit down-tube changers...................

?

[Brucey]

..........make sure you specify what you want. My BJ "Audax" didn't have down-tube fixings for the "stops". Just in case you wanted to fit down-tube changers...................

?

I think he means DT bosses, to which cable stop adaptors ('ergo bosses') or DT levers can be attached. This makes for a versatile frame, (if you are not sure about using handlebar mounted shifters or not) but it does tie you in to using some kind of gears that use these bosses/stops, else you have rather warty things to contend with.

FWIW another kind of compromise is to use small cable stops (or bottle bosses that will accept stops) that are brazed under the down tube, near where DT levers would mount. These look very neat when you are using handlebar mounted shifters. Should the bike be used in a way where these are not required, they are unobtrusive. Should you ever want to use DT levers, you can mount them to a special bracket, or simply fit a band-on set, using the braze-ons as a stop for the band, so it doesn't slide down the tube.

cheers

[JohnW]

..........make sure you specify what you want. My BJ "Audax" didn't have down-tube fixings for the "stops". Just in case you wanted to fit down-tube changers...................

?

I think he means DT bosses, to which cable stop adaptors ('ergo bosses') or DT levers can be attached. This makes for a versatile frame, (if you are not sure about using handlebar mounted shifters or not) but it does tie you in to using some kind of gears that use these bosses/stops, else you have rather warty things to contend with.

FWIW another kind of compromise is to use small cable stops (or bottle bosses that will accept stops) that are brazed under the down tube, near where DT levers would mount. These look very neat when you are using handlebar mounted shifters. Should the bike be used in a way where these are not required, they are unobtrusive. Should you ever want to use DT levers, you can mount them to a special bracket, or simply fit a band-on set, using the braze-ons as a stop for the band, so it doesn't slide down the tube.

cheers

Of course he does Brucey - I know all about friction down-tube levers and their advantages over the 'compatible-with-nothing-else' 'costafortune' gear-changing brake levers. All my frames have the lugs for down-tube levers. I shall be ordering another frame before the end of the year, and that will have the down-tube lever lugs.

My question mark was about someone else banging my worn-out drum by referring to such dear sweet old fashioned things.

But of course he's right - if ordering a new frame we have to include for such things at the planning stage - and we have to be very careful when buying new bikes or frames because the down-tubes nowadays are not usually of a shape or size that can accept the band-on down-tube levers - nor of a material to which one can braze, weld or otherwise fix them.

Spa frames do have the lugs. More power to them.

Watch for caustic responses.

[peetee]

…………,
Watch for caustic responses.

Happy to oblige with something ever so slightly cycling related.

[Brucey]

.....Spa frames do have the lugs.....

last time I checked, most, if not all of them, were lug-free.