Veloce vs. 105

[fausto99]

I have been relatively disappointed with the subjective shifting using the 10 speed Shimano 105 Brifters on my newish (2012) Pinarello compared to the 8 speed Campagnolo Veloce ones on my 1997 Evans tourer.

Despite their age the Campy ones just go "snick" and change effortlessly while the 105, although shifting OK, do it with more of an agricultural "clunk". Anyone else found this or like to comment? Should I be considering changing to Ultegra or even Dura-Ace? The bent steel shift lever behind the main lever on the 105 brifters hardly inspires confidence, but are the Ultegra and Dura-Ace the same? It's difficult to tell, looking on the Shimano website.

[Brucey]

systems do feel different to one another but if the 105 is 'bad' it is most likely that the setup isn't quite right, or something (the rear mech, the cables, the STIs) is worn or in need of lubrication.

If you can cadge a go on someone else's bike it should soon tell you if yours is in good shape or not.

cheers

[fausto99]

Thanks for the suggestion but, no, the 105 mech is definitively not "bad". I've only done 1200 miles on that bike, regularly cleaned and lubed everything. I consider that barely run-in.
Like I said it changes gear OK, it just sounds much, much clunkier than my ancient Campagnolo Veloce.

I've never liked the look of the 105 stamped steel secondary levers. Do the Ultegra and Dura-Ace have the same? Are they alloy? carbon?

[Paulatic]

If you've never liked the look of them it beggars the question "why buy em"

I use 105 and find them real sweet compared to some old Tiagra on another bike.

[Brucey]

Thanks for the suggestion but, no, the 105 mech is definitively not "bad". I've only done 1200 miles on that bike, regularly cleaned and lubed everything. I consider that barely run-in.
Like I said it changes gear OK, it just sounds much, much clunkier than my ancient Campagnolo Veloce.

I've never liked the look of the 105 stamped steel secondary levers. Do the Ultegra and Dura-Ace have the same? Are they alloy? carbon?

didn't you either try it or even look at it before you bought it, then?

Also note that there is no guarantee that your 105 system has ever been set up right...unless you try another similar system you will never know for sure.

BTW shimano STIs have positive acting ratchets in them but campag ergos have R springs that sit in detents which gives a different action. When the campag ones feel 'real smooth' it can mean that you are about five minutes away from needing an ergo rebuild, new R springs etc.

cheers

[fausto99]

At the risk of stating the obvious, in my experience, unless you build the bike from scratch, from components, you'll never get exactly what you wanted.

I'm not unhappy with the objective performance of the 105 rear mech at all. I've been cycling and building bikes since the 60s. I know how to set up gears. I'm just talking about the subjective sound. I'm surprised that an 18 yr old component sounds smoother. Maybe it's not the rear derailleur at all, maybe it's the carbon frame resonances that are not as pleasing to my ear, compared to 531 tubing. Who knows?

[Paulatic]

[quote="fausto99"]At the risk of stating the obvious, in my experience, unless you build the bike from scratch, from components, you'll never get exactly what you wanted.[quote]

IME bikes come with different level components and if something doesn't suit you ask for what you want.



Maybe it's not the rear derailleur at all, maybe it's the carbon frame resonances that are not as pleasing to my ear, compared to 531 tubing. Who knows?

Ah I thought it was the brifters that were clunking. I've a 105 rear mech using it with Tiagra cassette. It's never missed a gear and doesn't sound noisy sitting in a carbon frame. Perhaps you should follow Bruceys advice and try other people's machines, with similar components, to compare.

[Brucey]

carbon frames/forks can sound like kicked in dustbins when compared with steel ones, amplifying all kinds of noises that might otherwise not draw comment. Same with deep V carbon rims; many of those are just plain noisy too.

BTW you can do all the external adjustments on a shimano STI system and it can still be pants; the shifters need regular doses of lube if they are to work properly, the camber and toe setting of the gear hanger can make an enormous difference to the shift quality (tip; the gear hanger needs a little negative camber and a little toe out if the gears are to work at their best).

Also, all shimano undertape cabled shifters are very much at the mercy of the condition of the cables, far more so that with older STIs. They had enough trouble with the shimano 10s underbar cables that they changed the shift ratio on the 11s systems so that they cable pull didn't get even shorter, and launched new cables etc vs the older sort that had been fine on 9s systems.

Needless to say the likely factory setup is bone-dry shifters, bone dry cables with badly prepped housing ends hidden under the ferrules... no gear hanger tweaks. Low mileage is irrelevant; I would not assume that the system had ever been working at its best unless I'd checked/replaced all those things myself. Many shimano 10s users overhaul their gear cables every six months come what may because the shift quality goes off otherwise. Naturally the feel of these shifters will be entirely different from older ergos; even new ergos feel different to old ergos....

cheers

[Des49]

(tip; the gear hanger needs a little negative camber and a little toe out if the gears are to work at their best).

I never knew this. Will give it a go on my daughter's 10 sp racing bike. This has an Ultegra rear mech and 105 STI. The gear change has never been great, better once the gear hanger had been perfectly aligned and the the gear cables replaced with lined Dura-Ace versions.

A ride on a borrowed bike with 10sp Ultegra STI gave much better gear changes, seemed lighter and faster.

Thanks.

[Brucey]

if you look at the shimano specs they allow 'perfect' square alignment but they also allow a small amount of negative camber and toe-out. Often the best shifting is with a little of each.

Certainly the shift quality is almost invariably absolute rubbish with any amount of toe in and/or positive camber on the hanger.

cheers

[Valbrona]

Veloce = Ultegra.

[fausto99]

Veloce = Ultegra.

I don't think so. There's Athena, Chorus and Record all above Veloce. In my book that makes Veloce = Sora or Tiagra

[fausto99]

Can anyone tell me if the Ultegra and Dura-Ace secondary levers are pressed steel like the 105?

[fausto99]

(tip; the gear hanger needs a little negative camber and a little toe out if the gears are to work at their best).

Interesting, not that I'm complaining about the shift per se, just the sound. However, how does one go about adjusting camber and toe in/out with an alloy dropout in a carbon frame?

[fausto99]

... my daughter's 10 sp racing bike. This has an Ultegra rear mech and 105 STI. The gear change has never been great, better once the gear hanger had been perfectly aligned and the the gear cables replaced with lined Dura-Ace versions.
A ride on a borrowed bike with 10sp Ultegra STI gave much better gear changes, seemed lighter and faster...

Thanks for the first hand information. Very useful.