English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Separate forum to permit easy exclusion when searching for serious information !
Jdsk
Posts: 10560
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

kylecycler wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 6:40pm
Cowsham wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 4:04pm auto-antonym words or Janus words like "sanction" words that can have two meanings one the opposite of the other.

Little wonder I was confused by English at school.

The one that may affect me from time to time is "clip"

Please clip that cable could mean tidying the cable up or cutting it. Could be a costly misunderstanding.
Like clipless pedals being called clipless when you clip in and out of them (I mean, I know why they're called clipless but it's still a bit wonky!)
!!!

Any more HPV-related examples, anyone?

Jonathan
User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 1112
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

You're gonna have to explain HPV.
Jdsk
Posts: 10560
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

In this context Human Powered Vehicles.

I'm interested in all of them, but in this forum it avoids provoking those with HPVs with a number of wheels ≠ two. Which includes me... : - )

Jonathan
User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 1112
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

Ah, right - I didn't actually know what it meant in any context! :)

Certainly, these days my HPVs are exclusively human-powered two-wheelers and most likely always will be (albeit with electric assist some day, I expect) - all the money I've saved and/or spent over and above basic survival expenses I wouldn't have saved or spent if I'd run a car, in fact I'd likely be in debt.
User avatar
Audax67
Posts: 5155
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 9:02am
Location: Alsace, France
Contact:

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Audax67 »

Cowsham wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 4:04pm auto-antonym words or Janus words like "sanction" words that can have two meanings one the opposite of the other.
There's better: cleave meaning both split apart and and stick [to], the first from the German kleven and the second from the ditto kleben.

Which brings me (alas not by the defunct, quiet, clean Belfast trolley-buses of my youth*) to those eejits who ignore irregular forms of verbs and simply slap an -ed on the end without realizing how much they're devaluing the language. Cleave/clove/cloven (or even cleft) is so much richer than cleave/cleaved/cleaved, as is wreak/wrought/wrought than wreaked/wreaked/wreaked - whoever heard of a screen made of wreaked iron?

An American chappie once who told me "we find the simpler forms are easier for kids to handle" so I asked him how many childs he had.

Mind you, all these crimes are as nothing beside those of idiots who use autocomplete on their phones and don't bottle to really their test massage before sending it.

* stop me if I wander
Have we got time for another cuppa?
Jdsk
Posts: 10560
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Audax67 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 7:46am
Cowsham wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 4:04pm auto-antonym words or Janus words like "sanction" words that can have two meanings one the opposite of the other.
There's better: cleave meaning both split apart and and stick [to], the first from the German kleven and the second from the ditto kleben.
As it's a linguistics thread, and as we're discussing etymology...

Neither word in English comes "from the German" or from any modern German words. They are Germanic and they have a common root with modern German (and Dutch etc) and that common root is ProtoGermanic.

Jonathan

PS: Should they be klieben and kleben?
Jdsk
Posts: 10560
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Audax67 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 7:46am Cleave/clove/cloven (or even cleft) is so much richer than cleave/cleaved/cleaved, as is wreak/wrought/wrought than wreaked/wreaked/wreaked - whoever heard of a screen made of wreaked iron?
The derivation of wrought is related to work not wreak.

The usage is a different matter, and there's an interesting range of views, eg:
https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... erstanding
which includes the historical frequency.

Jonathan
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 19296
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 8:47am
Audax67 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 7:46am Cleave/clove/cloven (or even cleft) is so much richer than cleave/cleaved/cleaved, as is wreak/wrought/wrought than wreaked/wreaked/wreaked - whoever heard of a screen made of wreaked iron?
The derivation of wrought is related to work not wreak.

Jonathan
Interesting. I always thought it related to wright (as in shipwright, wheelwright), and that the present tense of the verb had fallen out of use, or something. It may even be that my mother told me that, and I don't remember her doing so. But I looked them up at Etymology online & see that you are closer...
https://www.etymonline.com/word/wrought
https://www.etymonline.com/word/wright
though they are related through 'work'.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Jdsk
Posts: 10560
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 9:06am
Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 8:47am
Audax67 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 7:46am Cleave/clove/cloven (or even cleft) is so much richer than cleave/cleaved/cleaved, as is wreak/wrought/wrought than wreaked/wreaked/wreaked - whoever heard of a screen made of wreaked iron?
The derivation of wrought is related to work not wreak.
Interesting. I always thought it related to wright (as in shipwright, wheelwright), and that the present tense of the verb had fallen out of use, or something. It may even be that my mother told me that, and I don't remember her doing so. But I looked them up at Etymology online & see that you are closer...
https://www.etymonline.com/word/wrought
https://www.etymonline.com/word/wright
though they are related through 'work'.
Yes, wright and wrought both related to work. It's wreak that's different. And that's the problem with wreaked/ wrought.

Jonathan
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 19296
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 9:10am Yes, wright and wrought both related to work. It's wreak that's different. And that's the problem with wreaked/ wrought.

Jonathan
Wreak is related to wreck, wrack, rack, and wretch, but not wrought!
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=wreak
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
DaveReading
Posts: 300
Joined: 24 Feb 2019, 5:37pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

Audax67 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 7:46amMind you, all these crimes are as nothing beside those of idiots who use autocomplete on their phones and don't bottle to really their test massage before sending it.
True. Followed closely by those who split their infinitives. :D
User avatar
Audax67
Posts: 5155
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 9:02am
Location: Alsace, France
Contact:

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Audax67 »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 9:10am
Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 9:06am
Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 8:47am
The derivation of wrought is related to work not wreak.
Interesting. I always thought it related to wright (as in shipwright, wheelwright), and that the present tense of the verb had fallen out of use, or something. It may even be that my mother told me that, and I don't remember her doing so. But I looked them up at Etymology online & see that you are closer...
https://www.etymonline.com/word/wrought
https://www.etymonline.com/word/wright
though they are related through 'work'.
Yes, wright and wrought both related to work. It's wreak that's different. And that's the problem with wreaked/ wrought.

Jonathan
Put my foot in the ointment there, didn't I? Ditto cleave. Oh well, senility...
Have we got time for another cuppa?
Jdsk
Posts: 10560
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Two great topics.

Please keep them coming.

: - )

Jonathan
colin54
Posts: 1831
Joined: 24 Sep 2013, 4:34pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by colin54 »

After reading the discussions on Scots words for cows I had a look in 'A Hawick Word Book' written by Douglas Scott.
A great read if you're interested in Scots language and history of people and places in Hawick and the surrounding borders countryside - 3710 pages long ! The first ten pages are a good introduction, of interest to to linguists reading this perhaps.That's a tremendous amount of research.
https://www.astro.ubc.ca/people/scott/book.pdf
I was interested upon reading, to find the name for a small Highland Cow is/was a Kylie / Kyloe( page 1760 ) of the above pdf. Kylie can also mean (or a similar sound word perhaps) boomerang in Australia apparently.
There are some in a field near me, picture taken last year.
The blonde calf is now full grown I saw it a couple of days ago. Small, blonde, Kylie, it reminds me of someone, not a cow tho'.
P1140710.JPG
Jdsk
Posts: 10560
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

colin54 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 12:05pmI was interested upon reading, to find the name for a small Highland Cow is/was a Kylie / Kyloe( page 1760 ) of the above pdf. Kylie can also mean (or a similar sound word perhaps) boomerang in Australia apparently.
That is interesting. OED has it as a breed:
"One of a small breed of cattle with long horns reared in the Highlands and Western Islands of Scotland."
with a possible derivation from kyle (narrow channel).

Jonathan

PS: Kylie Minogue was named after the boomerang! (And Minogue has the same root as monk.)
Post Reply