English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:51pm
Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:38pm PS: There never was a "Viking language". Or a Viking people. It was a thing that people did, not what they were.
It's true! The Vikings were surprisingly diverse.

The word 'vik' just means inlet or creek mouth in Norwegian. I guess they are good places to ground boats. (though I gather the origin of the word 'Viking' is somewhat in dispute, even in Scandinavia)
I've just been listening to someone who knows more than me discussing whether powerful Scandinavians and powerful Anglo-Saxons who met in England during the Danelaw would have been able to understand each other. They probably could.

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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Sparkasse etc.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 12:14pm with a possible derivation from kyle (narrow channel).
Hence the bridge in the avatar - Kylesku Bridge in Sutherland (furthest north I've been - I cycled around Assynt from Achmelvich in 2018, turned left to see the bridge but then headed back down to Bonar Bridge for the night).

_101784019_bridge (2).jpg
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

: - )

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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Cowsham »

Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:22pm
Cowsham wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 12:52pm Taking of origins of words it's surprising to me how little influence the Viking language had on English as we know it now.

You'd think it would have had more since Vikings were sort of assimilated into the Anglo Saxon culture here.

Vorpal you lot did a lot of raping and pillaging but not much swearing.
Actually I find lots of things that are the same or similar between Norwegian & English. I aslo think this is really interesting...

Some words have the same roots between Germanic languages, and others are clearly Old Norse in origin.

Club, gun, berserk, get, go, egg, law, lake, skin, sky, ski (and many other 'sk' and 'sc' words), gift, crawl, much, muggy, seem, see, say, window, bread, will, win, want, gang. etc.

either come from Old Norse, or have the same roots.

Many of them are the same word in Norwegian as English with a slightly different spelling or pronunciation. 'w', for example is not used, so 'window' is 'vindu', which interestingly comes from Old Norse for eye of the wind (vindauga)

Some are listed by etymologists as being from Old English, for example 'all', but the same word is in use in Norwegian (alle, alt), so it doesn't completely make sense to me. 'sofa' is listed in etymology as being of Arabic origin, but in Icelandic, it means 'to sleep', and Norwegian has a similar word, 'sover'
Maybe I'm comparing it too much to Manx Gaelic which has some Viking influence ( a few "Sk" words in it.)
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 2:01pm
Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:51pm
Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:38pm Yes, but more on the bit that doesn't make sense, please.
I don't always note that things that don't make sense, but there are many 'false friends' between English and Norwegian.

Our word 'spare' has the same origins as 'spare' in Norwegian, but in Norwegian, it means to save, instead of extra parts (more like to spare a life than a spare part), but my kids often use it with money, as in, "I will spare my money until I have enough for the new game".
Thanks.

More false friends, please... and I'll start from the position that they're likely to have a common root and divergent usage.

Jonathan

PS: Any theories on the origin of to go spare?
The origin of to go spare, as in get angry, derives from the Cockney rhyming slang ‘spare tyre’ meaning to show your ire, by extension to get irate.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:55pm
Marcus Aurelius wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:49pm Starting a sentence with ‘so’. It really really irritates me.
Also extensively discussed upthread. But it was used in that way by many great writers:
viewtopic.php?p=1533154#p1533154

As always... why is it so irritating, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: Did I manage to avoid it... that wasn't easy. ; - )
It depends exactly how it’s used. For example ‘so be it’ is fine. ‘So wadidiz yeah, is that I din do nuffink’ is very bad. ‘So what my mates and I did was………’ not quite as bad, but still irritating, especially if there was nothing said / written before it. ‘So to be clear…….’ nearly as irritating, especially if used in isolation, and not following anything.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Oldjohnw »

What is irritating (to me) is when almost every sentence in response to a question begins with ‘So..’ Not a linguistic technique but the equivalent of ‘Er, um.’
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Audax67 »

Back when I was learning German the teacher said "if a car pulls up and someone gets out and says 'so!', you can be sure they're German. Especially if you can hear them at 50 feet".

To which I would add 1) make that metres and 2) upwind.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Cowsham wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 8:25pm
Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:22pm
Cowsham wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 12:52pm Taking of origins of words it's surprising to me how little influence the Viking language had on English as we know it now.

You'd think it would have had more since Vikings were sort of assimilated into the Anglo Saxon culture here.

Vorpal you lot did a lot of raping and pillaging but not much swearing.
Actually I find lots of things that are the same or similar between Norwegian & English. I aslo think this is really interesting...

Some words have the same roots between Germanic languages, and others are clearly Old Norse in origin.

Club, gun, berserk, get, go, egg, law, lake, skin, sky, ski (and many other 'sk' and 'sc' words), gift, crawl, much, muggy, seem, see, say, window, bread, will, win, want, gang. etc.

either come from Old Norse, or have the same roots.

Many of them are the same word in Norwegian as English with a slightly different spelling or pronunciation. 'w', for example is not used, so 'window' is 'vindu', which interestingly comes from Old Norse for eye of the wind (vindauga)

Some are listed by etymologists as being from Old English, for example 'all', but the same word is in use in Norwegian (alle, alt), so it doesn't completely make sense to me. 'sofa' is listed in etymology as being of Arabic origin, but in Icelandic, it means 'to sleep', and Norwegian has a similar word, 'sover'
Maybe I'm comparing it too much to Manx Gaelic which has some Viking influence ( a few "Sk" words in it.)
Going beyond Viking, sk-/sh- is reckoned to derive from a PIE root for cutting, giving us words like scissors, skirt and shirt.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 16 Sep 2021, 11:33am
Cowsham wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 8:25pm
Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:22pm Actually I find lots of things that are the same or similar between Norwegian & English. I aslo think this is really interesting...

Some words have the same roots between Germanic languages, and others are clearly Old Norse in origin.

Club, gun, berserk, get, go, egg, law, lake, skin, sky, ski (and many other 'sk' and 'sc' words), gift, crawl, much, muggy, seem, see, say, window, bread, will, win, want, gang. etc.

either come from Old Norse, or have the same roots.

Many of them are the same word in Norwegian as English with a slightly different spelling or pronunciation. 'w', for example is not used, so 'window' is 'vindu', which interestingly comes from Old Norse for eye of the wind (vindauga)

Some are listed by etymologists as being from Old English, for example 'all', but the same word is in use in Norwegian (alle, alt), so it doesn't completely make sense to me. 'sofa' is listed in etymology as being of Arabic origin, but in Icelandic, it means 'to sleep', and Norwegian has a similar word, 'sover'
Maybe I'm comparing it too much to Manx Gaelic which has some Viking influence ( a few "Sk" words in it.)
Going beyond Viking, sk-/sh- is reckoned to derive from a PIE root for cutting, giving us words like scissors, skirt and shirt.
And science! Which allows us to work this stuff out. : - )

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 16 Sep 2021, 11:45am, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Cowsham wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 8:25pm
Vorpal wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 1:22pm
Cowsham wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 12:52pm Taking of origins of words it's surprising to me how little influence the Viking language had on English as we know it now.

You'd think it would have had more since Vikings were sort of assimilated into the Anglo Saxon culture here.

Vorpal you lot did a lot of raping and pillaging but not much swearing.
Actually I find lots of things that are the same or similar between Norwegian & English. I aslo think this is really interesting...

Some words have the same roots between Germanic languages, and others are clearly Old Norse in origin.

Club, gun, berserk, get, go, egg, law, lake, skin, sky, ski (and many other 'sk' and 'sc' words), gift, crawl, much, muggy, seem, see, say, window, bread, will, win, want, gang. etc.

either come from Old Norse, or have the same roots.

Many of them are the same word in Norwegian as English with a slightly different spelling or pronunciation. 'w', for example is not used, so 'window' is 'vindu', which interestingly comes from Old Norse for eye of the wind (vindauga)

Some are listed by etymologists as being from Old English, for example 'all', but the same word is in use in Norwegian (alle, alt), so it doesn't completely make sense to me. 'sofa' is listed in etymology as being of Arabic origin, but in Icelandic, it means 'to sleep', and Norwegian has a similar word, 'sover'
Maybe I'm comparing it too much to Manx Gaelic which has some Viking influence ( a few "Sk" words in it.)
Are there many words of Scandinavian/ Norse origin in Manx? Apart from the names of places and people?

There's a debate about whether spoken Manx died out during Scandinavian rule:
"The problem of Manx: Norse linguistic evidence for the survival of Manx Gaelic in the Scandinavian period":
https://ebrary.net/172572/history/probl ... ian_period

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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 16 Sep 2021, 11:33am
Going beyond Viking, sk-/sh- is reckoned to derive from a PIE root for cutting, giving us words like scissors, skirt and shirt.
hmm. I gather you mean 'skei'.

Scissors, maybe (and words like ski, shive, shingle, shin, etc.).

But Shirt & skirt both come from Old Norse 'skyrte', and are similar in modern Norwegian (skjorte and skjørt, respectively). The roots of 'skyrte' according to Norwegian etymology & Wiktionary, is Proto-Germanic skurtijǭ

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skirt
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Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 16 Sep 2021, 12:01pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 16 Sep 2021, 11:33am
Going beyond Viking, sk-/sh- is reckoned to derive from a PIE root for cutting, giving us words like scissors, skirt and shirt.
hmm. I gather you mean 'skei'.

Scissors, maybe (and words like ski, shive, shingle, shin, etc.).

But Shirt & skirt both come from Old Norse 'skyrte', and are similar in modern Norwegian (skjorte and skjørt, respectively). The roots of 'skyrte' according to Norwegian etymology & Wiktionary, is Proto-Germanic skurtijǭ

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skirt
But I think that has the same PIE root... skyrte... skurtaz... *(s)ker.

Or in English (!) skirt... shirt... short... cut.

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 16 Sep 2021, 12:05pm But I think that has the same PIE root... skyrte... skurtaz... *(s)ker.

Or in English (!) skirt... shirt... short... cut.

Jonathan
Interesting. I thought they were unrelated, but they aren't...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... an/(s)ker-
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