English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

[Audax67]

There are places 15 miles outside Belfast where I can't understand them.

[661-Pete]

Some British people say the 'r' sound very softly.

That's certainly true! One way in which foreigners invariably recognise the Brit (or more specifically the Englishman/woman abroad) is by their inability to pronounce their 'r's.

I remember when I was learning Spanish, we were instructed to pronounce our 'r's very distinctly, and the doubled 'rr' even more so - it is important to observe the distinction. So we were set a sort of exercise: imagine reading out a notice as might be displayed at a public building or park, with the words "NO PEROS: NO PERROS" - literally "no buts: no dogs". Learning to say the phrase clearly so that a Hispanic would understand, is quite a trial.

I hear similar pronunciation differences and accents in Norwegian; they can make it quite difficult for me to understand.

I don't speak any Norwegian but I am fully aware that it's actually two languages: Bokmål and Nynorsk. And that these are not very mutually intelligible. Does a lot of the difficulty in Norway stem from these differences? Just curious.

[Bmblbzzz]

Less unique?

[Vorpal]

I don't speak any Norwegian but I am fully aware that it's actually two languages: Bokmål and Nynorsk. And that these are not very mutually intelligible. Does a lot of the difficulty in Norway stem from these differences? Just curious.

Bokmål and Nynorsk are kind of made up languages, insomuch as they needed official (legal) languages. Bokmål and Nynorsk bear as much relationship to how people speak everyday as Oxford English does to what you hear in the streets of Dagenham or the Yorkshire dales.

And Bokmål and Nynorsk are only official as written languages. There is no guidance about how to speak them. People speak their own dialects. More people write Bokmål than Nynorsk, but most dialects are more similar to Nynorsk than Bokmål. Like BBC English, the broadcaster versions of Bokmål and Nynorsk are quite pure and carefully enunciated. I think that most people who understand Norwegian can understand the broadcasters form of both.

There are two other unofficial versions of the language, Riksmål and Høgnorsk. Riksmål is more like Danish (the Danes ruled here 300 years & Danish was the legal language during that time). Høgnorsk is kind of the posh version of Nynorsk from what I understand.

There are also several Sami languages. In the eastern parts of Norway, there is a fair amount of mixing with Swedish, and many Norwegians understand Swedish and watch Swedish television. I understand sort of 90% of everyday Norwegian (local dialect), that becomes about 60 or 70% when I am listening to Swedish. I understand less talking to someone with a very different dialect speaking Norwegian.

[Vorpal]

Less unique?

The predominance of television and government standards for education and that sort of thing mean that the way people speak English across Britain or the USA varies less than it did a generation or two ago, and much less than 4 generations ago. b So dialects are less unique than they once were.

[661-Pete]

I think bmblzzz was referring to your use of the phrase "less unique" - considered (leastways, by many a schoolteacher) to be the grossest solecism which it's possible to commit in the English language .... "unique" is meant to be an absolute and cannot have comparatives ..... etc. etc.

Anyway, no matter .

Thanks anyway Vorpal for your insight into Norwegian. This would be of even more interest to my son, who has a keen interest in languages and their diversity (although he's hardly a polyglot himself - he speaks a bit of Russian and that's it). He travels a lot, and recently went to Papua New Guinea, probably the most language-diverse country in the world. Just about every village there has its own language - and they're often mutually unintelligible.

I certainly have had difficulties in following some English-speakers, though I'd not like to finger any particular region as being especially obtuse.

In France, however - even if I were more fluent than I am - it can be a nightmare! Especially in rural areas, so many folks speak a sort of local patois. In 'our' region, bordering on the Languedoc, I suspect there's still plenty of Occitan influence in speech, although one comes across the Occitan language mainly in the form of alternative placenames (e.g. "Cahors" becomes "Caurs") - like what you see in Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

[Bmblbzzz]

I think bmblzzz was referring to your use of the phrase "less unique" - considered (leastways, by many a schoolteacher) to be the grossest solecism which it's possible to commit in the English language .... "unique" is meant to be an absolute and cannot have comparatives ..... etc. etc.

This. And also another ; had it been in any other thread, I would have ignored it.

[Mick F]

Hi,
Pronounce that Mick F
"Milngavie"

Been there.
Have you?

As a family, we didn't live too far from there back in the 80s.
Just up the road from Glasgow beyond Bearsden.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.94026 ... 151862,13z


For the uninitiated, it's pronounced ................. Mull Guy.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Hi,
Pronounce that Mick F
"Milngavie"

Been there.
Have you?

As a family, we didn't live too far from there back in the 80s.
Just up the road from Glasgow beyond Bearsden.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.94026 ... 151862,13z


For the uninitiated, it's pronounced ................. Mull Guy.

Walked the west Highland Way 1980 Xmas (starts there), camped on a track adjacent to loch Lomond, new years eve revellers kept me awake trudging past my tent
Up to my thighs in snow coming over the hill to the loch Saw an ice cube perfectly transparent on the river feeding the loch.....the size of my house Walked over a stream and no sooner I hit the other bank a snow ball size of my 100 litre rucksack fell through the trees and smashed into the stream where I crossed

How do you like the weather down south compared to Scotland .

[Mick F]

When we moved to Scotland the second time, one daughter was 7, the other 4 ................ both had been born is Scotland.
We left Plymouth is the September of 1982 with the girls in summer dresses and sandals.

Within the first day or two, we had to buy them coats, warm jumpers, wellies and hats.
Even though we'd lived up there before, it still took us by surprise.

Why anyone lives there permanently, I'll never know.

[Lance Dopestrong]

The current trend for politicians to say "nego-cee-ate" instead of "nego-she-ate" like they did until Tony B.Liar came along.

People that say "skeleNton".

Anything that comes out the mouth of that smug, conceited plum that is Stephen Fry.

[Cyril Haearn]

I think bmblzzz was referring to your use of the phrase "less unique" - considered (leastways, by many a schoolteacher) to be the grossest solecism which it's possible to commit in the English language .... "unique" is meant to be an absolute and cannot have comparatives ..... etc. etc.

Anyway, no matter .

Thanks anyway Vorpal for your insight into Norwegian. This would be of even more interest to my son, who has a keen interest in languages and their diversity (although he's hardly a polyglot himself - he speaks a bit of Russian and that's it). He travels a lot, and recently went to Papua New Guinea, probably the most language-diverse country in the world. Just about every village there has its own language - and they're often mutually unintelligible.

I certainly have had difficulties in following some English-speakers, though I'd not like to finger any particular region as being especially obtuse.

In France, however - even if I were more fluent than I am - it can be a nightmare! Especially in rural areas, so many folks speak a sort of local patois. In 'our' region, bordering on the Languedoc, I suspect there's still plenty of Occitan influence in speech, although one comes across the Occitan language mainly in the form of alternative placenames (e.g. "Cahors" becomes "Caurs") - like what you see in Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

I recommend this book about threatened languages at every opportunity:
Spoken here, by Mark Abley

[Cyril Haearn]

Some British people say the 'r' sound very softly.

That's certainly true! One way in which foreigners invariably recognise the Brit (or more specifically the Englishman/woman abroad) is by their inability to pronounce their 'r's.

I remember when I was learning Spanish, we were instructed to pronounce our 'r's very distinctly, and the doubled 'rr' even more so - it is important to observe the distinction. So we were set a sort of exercise: imagine reading out a notice as might be displayed at a public building or park, with the words "NO PEROS: NO PERROS" - literally "no buts: no dogs". Learning to say the phrase clearly so that a Hispanic would understand, is quite a trial.

I hear similar pronunciation differences and accents in Norwegian; they can make it quite difficult for me to understand.

I don't speak any Norwegian but I am fully aware that it's actually two languages: Bokmål and Nynorsk. And that these are not very mutually intelligible. Does a lot of the difficulty in Norway stem from these differences? Just curious.

In German the *problem* is that an English speaker CAN pronounce *r*, it sounds different and betrays one immediately

What about *no perrons* (platforms)? In German we have *Gleis*, track and *Bahnsteig*, platform. Plenty of words come from French - Chausee, Etage, Bouleversement. When one has used a language long enough one has alternatives if one is not sure how to pronounce *negotiate* for example

[sjs]

The current trend for politicians to say "nego-cee-ate" instead of "nego-she-ate" like they did until Tony B.Liar came along.

People that say "skeleNton".

And when did "nuclear" become "nucular"?

[661-Pete]

And when did "nuclear" become "nucular"?

Probably at about the same time as when Wednesday became "Wens-day"