English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Separate forum to permit easy exclusion when searching for serious information !
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

Not so much "does your head in" but what seems a new use of language, which I only noticed in recent TdeF coverage is that many (most?) riders when interviewed punctuate their comments with the word "yes" to reinforce what they are saying, rather than to indicate agreement. Thinking about it, I suppose it's instead of "you know." Perhaps this originated with somebody being interviewed in English using a form translated from their first language, but native English speakers eg Simon Yates seem to do it frequently.
Mistik-ka
Posts: 505
Joined: 5 Feb 2012, 10:01pm
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mistik-ka »

third crank wrote:… punctuate their comments with the word "yes" to reinforce what they are saying, rather than to indicate agreement.

On my side of the Atlantic a mere "yes" is now viewed (heard?) as insufficiently emphatic — for the past couple of years nothing less than "absolutely" will suffice. :roll:
Thinking about it, I suppose it's instead of "you know."

It doesn't seem that long ago that I was regularly twitted by my English mother —who, in a losing campaign to prevent her children from descending into colonial savagery, was very particular about English usage— for frequent use of "you know". (Funny how quickly six decades can slip past :lol: …)

It seems to me the function of "you know" was to hold the listener's attention while giving the speaker a moment to collect his thoughts. "Well" can serve the same purpose for someone attempting a more educated demeanour, and currently in Canada "so…" has become an over-used beginning to almost any declarative sentence. I recently heard an interview on our local CBC radio station in which the interviewee started every answer is "So…" But to be fair, I must admit that the interviewer started every question with "So…" as well. :shock:

Of course the old-fashioned among us can always fall back on "Um…" or "Uhhhh…", the way our current Prime Minister does (to my endless annoyance). My Mum would have sorted him out in short order. :wink:
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Cyril Haearn »

thirdcrank wrote:Not so much "does your head in" but what seems a new use of language, which I only noticed in recent TdeF coverage is that many (most?) riders when interviewed punctuate their comments with the word "yes" to reinforce what they are saying, rather than to indicate agreement. Thinking about it, I suppose it's instead of "you know." Perhaps this originated with somebody being interviewed in English using a form translated from their first language, but native English speakers eg Simon Yates seem to do it frequently.


English-speaking cyclists who live abroad use a lot of their brains for French, Italian etc. Maybe they are translating back into English. One can easily get out of practice
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

AlaninWales wrote:
Mick F wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Empty the stale kettle water and draw some fresher water from the tap...............?
No.

Empty the stale kettle water and draw some FRESH water from the tap.

Is the water in the tap entirely fresh? Or is it simply fresher than the water which was in the kettle. Presumably the water from the tap will have stood for some time n the supply pipes, losing freshness, whilst the water in the kettle may have had its freshness boiled away.

The water from the tap is therefore likely fresher than the water that was in the kettle, but not entirely fresh. "Fresher" is therefore the correct adjective :wink: (IMO).
Yes, but NA's point was about stale water in the kettle.

If the water in the kettle was fresh but "tired" through being boiled, the water in the tap would indeed be fresher.
Mick F. Cornwall
AlaninWales
Posts: 1626
Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by AlaninWales »

Mick F wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:
Mick F wrote:No.

Empty the stale kettle water and draw some FRESH water from the tap.

Is the water in the tap entirely fresh? Or is it simply fresher than the water which was in the kettle. Presumably the water from the tap will have stood for some time n the supply pipes, losing freshness, whilst the water in the kettle may have had its freshness boiled away.

The water from the tap is therefore likely fresher than the water that was in the kettle, but not entirely fresh. "Fresher" is therefore the correct adjective :wink: (IMO).
Yes, but NA's point was about stale water in the kettle.

If the water in the kettle was fresh but "tired" through being boiled, the water in the tap would indeed be fresher.

Agreed, but the tap water is not fresh water. "Fresh" is an absolute and whether the kettle water is "tired" or "stale", the tap water is only relatively fresh (i.e. "fresher") :lol: .

It's all very well discussing such distinctions though, but most people seem to be confused by such simple things as a statement saying there are "reasonable grounds ... to suspect that ... offences may have...". I am sure these words are carefully chosen, but the carelessness with which English is commonly used results in people not knowing what they mean This truly, is what "Does my head in" :cry:
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

AlaninWales wrote:The water from the tap is therefore likely fresher than the water that was in the kettle, but not entirely fresh. "Fresher" is therefore the correct adjective :wink: (IMO).

Or he could run the water for few minutes, until what comes out of the tap is fresh. :wink:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
AlaninWales
Posts: 1626
Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by AlaninWales »

Vorpal wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:The water from the tap is therefore likely fresher than the water that was in the kettle, but not entirely fresh. "Fresher" is therefore the correct adjective :wink: (IMO).

Or he could run the water for few minutes, until what comes out of the tap is fresh. :wink:

Er ... :lol:

Or he could run the tap until it is freshly flowing from the re-treatment plant, or fetch some in a bucket that has fallen fresh from the sky :D .
User avatar
Graham
Moderator
Posts: 6489
Joined: 14 Dec 2006, 8:48pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Graham »

I have come across a lot of MacDonalds packaging with "Freshly Ordered" printed upon them.

At first I was a bit puzzled by this nonsense, but then realised that they were chosen to deliver a message of delight to the customer.

Freshly - a word that would normally be associated with the food. The expectation is set up, but there is no contractual obligation formed i.e. "Fresh food" or "freshly cooked food" does not appear.

"Ordered" - yes dear customer, you are in control. You paid your money and we provided what you want. Feel good.

EDIT : Further comment removed - in case the scary clown comes after me.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

Mistik-ka wrote:
third crank wrote:… punctuate their comments with the word "yes" to reinforce what they are saying, rather than to indicate agreement.

On my side of the Atlantic a mere "yes" is now viewed (heard?) as insufficiently emphatic — for the past couple of years nothing less than "absolutely" will suffice. :roll:
Thinking about it, I suppose it's instead of "you know."

It doesn't seem that long ago that I was regularly twitted by my English mother —who, in a losing campaign to prevent her children from descending into colonial savagery, was very particular about English usage— for frequent use of "you know". (Funny how quickly six decades can slip past :lol: …)

It seems to me the function of "you know" was to hold the listener's attention while giving the speaker a moment to collect his thoughts. "Well" can serve the same purpose for someone attempting a more educated demeanour, and currently in Canada "so…" has become an over-used beginning to almost any declarative sentence. I recently heard an interview on our local CBC radio station in which the interviewee started every answer is "So…" But to be fair, I must admit that the interviewer started every question with "So…" as well. :shock:

Of course the old-fashioned among us can always fall back on "Um…" or "Uhhhh…", the way our current Prime Minister does (to my endless annoyance). My Mum would have sorted him out in short order. :wink:


We get plenty of "absolutely" too, and in some parts "innit," which must have originated as an emphasising question, possibly "ain't it?" is gaining ground, complicated by an Australian-type intonation which sounds like the end of a question but isn't.

I seem to be the only one to have noticed the "yes" I was on about, which may mean that the number of people who both watch the TdeF and post on this thread is small. Two native English speakers who do this a lot are Simon Yates and Dan Martin. The latter may not be a Brit, but I'm pretty sure that English is his first language.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Vorpal wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:The water from the tap is therefore likely fresher than the water that was in the kettle, but not entirely fresh. "Fresher" is therefore the correct adjective :wink: (IMO).

Or he could run the water for few minutes, until what comes out of the tap is fresh. :wink:
Yep.
You can draw fresh water from the tap.

Fresh is the opposite to stale.
Mick F. Cornwall
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by 661-Pete »

AlaninWales wrote:The water from the tap is therefore likely fresher than the water that was in the kettle, but not entirely fresh.
Reminds me of that hoary old adage. Every time you drink a glass of water (anywhere in the world), you are drinking thousands of molecules that were once - *ahem* - micturated by Julius Caesar. Fact!

Unless you synthesise your own H2O by burning hydrogen, there's no such thing as 'fresh' water. Water is enduring stuff....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by 661-Pete »

Back on topic with a bump.

I've just been reading through this news item, and it occurs to me that, whether or not you actually choose to write with good grammar and spelling, knowing when to recognise bad examples of both, in others' writing, can be a godsend.

These bogus parking tickets are notable for their awful grammar. Why is it, I ask myself, that spammers and phishers are amongst the worst in their command of the English language?

But this characteristic is of great help in avoiding them! Indeed, as soon as I receive an E-mail from an unknown sender, the first thing I look over is its grammar. If there are obvious errors, alarm bells start ringing!

So - the lesson for all of you is this. If you fancy a career as a spammer, then let rip! The more ungrammatical, the better! But if your job is to send out genuine messages to strangers, take care!
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6261
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I once read an explanation of why so many money transfer scams (where someone claims to be about to inherit a fortune from an uncle in Nigeria but needs to transfer the money to a safe country to avoid criminals, customs duties, or whatever) immediately state they're from Nigeria, a country notorious for this trick. The reasoning was it's a sort of selection process. The scammers don't want to have to deal with people who are not fooled, or who retain some scepticism. The process takes some time and so they only want to deal with the most gullible, in order to be sure of a result. The grammatical and spelling errors in a letter like this fake parking ticket could be a similar process.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4659
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

There's a few expressions here that made me smile.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41266000
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

PDQ Mobile wrote:There's a few expressions here that made me smile.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41266000

Shouldn't that be "There are..." ?? :wink:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Post Reply