English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Separate forum to permit easy exclusion when searching for serious information !
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Audax67 wrote: 21 Nov 2021, 2:46pmIncreasingly I'm seeing adjectives and even prefixes used in the wrong order...
The standard order of adjectives in English is the best example that I know of language users following a rule that they can't describe and probably don't know that they know. But they can spot when it's observed and when it's broken.

Jonathan
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6249
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

When he was PM, he was "the Irish PM" so he's now "the ex-Irish PM". If you want to be pedantic, he could have been the Irish PM of another country, or he could later have renounced his Irish citizenship. Neither is likely and I think the meaning is clear. A better way to say it might have been "the former PM of Ireland" but the space for the headline is only so long.
Wilhelmus
Posts: 124
Joined: 19 Oct 2021, 4:35pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Wilhelmus »

.
Last edited by Wilhelmus on 25 Nov 2021, 1:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Wilhelmus wrote: 21 Nov 2021, 4:44pm... but the Taoiseach is never the Prime Minister, even in English.
From the Constitution of Ireland:

Article 13
1. 1° The President shall, on the nomination of Dáil Éireann, appoint the Taoiseach, that is, the head of the Government or Prime Minister.


https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/en.cons.pdf

Jonathan
Wilhelmus
Posts: 124
Joined: 19 Oct 2021, 4:35pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Wilhelmus »

.
Last edited by Wilhelmus on 25 Nov 2021, 1:13pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Wilhelmus wrote: 21 Nov 2021, 5:05pm The Constitution dates from the late 1940s...
1937

Jonathan
Wilhelmus
Posts: 124
Joined: 19 Oct 2021, 4:35pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Wilhelmus »

.
Last edited by Wilhelmus on 25 Nov 2021, 1:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
DaveReading
Posts: 742
Joined: 24 Feb 2019, 5:37pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

Audax67 wrote: 21 Nov 2021, 2:46pm Increasingly I'm seeing adjectives and even prefixes used in the wrong order, e.g. a headline about Bertie Ahearn I saw the other day describing him as "the ex-Irish PM". Just plain no. He didn't stop being Irish, he stopped being PM, so he's the Irish ex-PM.
Not many people know, but Bertie Ahern is a barrow ex-boy.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Wilhelmus wrote: 21 Nov 2021, 5:05pmTrust me, or not, but absolutely nobody in Ireland refers to an Taoiseach as the Prime Minister. That solecism is strictly the preserve of foreign media.
Absolutely nobody?

How many examples would you like?

Screenshot 2021-11-21 at 17.30.48.png
https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD

That's him referring to himself.

"Please don’t scrap Pride until at least next year. We’ve got to see our Prime Minister in glittery shorts. It’s important that we see Taoiseach Leo Varadkar with glowsticks and warpaint.”
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-n ... e-13229561

That's an Irish comedian on an Irish news site.

Jonathan
Wilhelmus
Posts: 124
Joined: 19 Oct 2021, 4:35pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Wilhelmus »

.
Last edited by Wilhelmus on 25 Nov 2021, 1:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6249
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Going back to the ex-Irish PM or the Irish ex-PM, I think what's happening here is that Audax67 is seeing Irish as an adjective modifying the noun PM, whereas the speaker or writer is viewing "Irish PM" as one unit of vocabulary. We can see this in DaveReading's example above of the "barrow ex-boy", where "barrow boy" despite being a noun with an adjective, is linguistically one item. We can also see this by forgetting that he's Irish. We'd probably call him an ex-prime minister not a prime ex-minister, even though we might be able to argue that technically he is an ex-minister and is still, in whatever way, prime.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56349
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Was in the pub yesterday afternoon and I heard a young chap asking for a pint.
He said, "Can I get a pint of Legend?"

This put me in mind of a couple of years ago in a different pub, when the same question was asked (different beer though).
The landlord answered bluntly, "No."
The young chap looked shocked and bemused.
The landlord went on, "You can buy one and have one, but I will get one for you."


Excellent! :D
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 22 Nov 2021, 9:31am Going back to the ex-Irish PM or the Irish ex-PM, I think what's happening here is that Audax67 is seeing Irish as an adjective modifying the noun PM, whereas the speaker or writer is viewing "Irish PM" as one unit of vocabulary. We can see this in DaveReading's example above of the "barrow ex-boy", where "barrow boy" despite being a noun with an adjective, is linguistically one item. We can also see this by forgetting that he's Irish. We'd probably call him an ex-prime minister not a prime ex-minister, even though we might be able to argue that technically he is an ex-minister and is still, in whatever way, prime.
Yes.

The important thing is to remove the ambiguity by finding wording that fits the style: headline, body text, academic paper, conversation, web forum...

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 22 Nov 2021, 9:36am Was in the pub yesterday afternoon and I heard a young chap asking for a pint.
He said, "Can I get a pint of Legend?"

This put me in mind of a couple of years ago in a different pub, when the same question was asked (different beer though).
The landlord answered bluntly, "No."
The young chap looked shocked and bemused.
The landlord went on, "You can buy one and have one, but I will get one for you."


Excellent!
This comes up time and time again.

But why does the young chap's usage annoy you, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
Mike Sales
Posts: 7860
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 22 Nov 2021, 9:42am

But why does the young chap's usage annoy you, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
It annoys me because it is another example of the steadily increasing Americanisation of our English.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Post Reply