English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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Bonefishblues
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bonefishblues »

Vorpal wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:There's a few expressions here that made me smile.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41266000

Shouldn't that be "There are..." ?? :wink:

That it be, that it be.

Sorry, went all pirate for some reason, but I will be trying to weave some of those in over the coming weeks :D
PDQ Mobile
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Vorpal wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:There's a few expressions here that made me smile.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41266000

Shouldn't that be "There are..." ?? :wink:

Debatable, after all it's a single web page- "here"?

The wise will no doubt inform!
I blame the iphone key pad anyway!
Always looking to type as little as possible?
Vorpal
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:There's a few expressions here that made me smile.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41266000

Shouldn't that be "There are..." ?? :wink:

Debatable, after all it's a single web page- "here"?

The wise will no doubt inform!
I blame the iphone key pad anyway!
Always looking to type as little as possible?

The object of the phrase is 'expressions', so the verb should go with that. If you want to minimise typing, you can use
There're which saves two key strokes, until someone wants to know why the heck you didnæt just type it out, and then you have to spend another 30 key strokes defending your decision to contract 'there' and 'are' :lol: :lol:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
PDQ Mobile
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

I thought the object might be "here" ie the web page.
I was curious.
A quick Google revealed it ("There's a few") to be a common grammatical anomaly; especially (but not only) in spoken English.

Both "feel" ok to me.
And I am a native speaker!

But I bow to your superior knowledge.
Iphone business only a joke, though I do detest the keypad with a passion.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Verbs agree with subjects not objects. The subject of the verb in this case is there. It's what's known as a dummy subject, it plays a role in the sentence structure but has no meaning in this context. You could say:
Here are a few expressions that made me smile.
and the meaning would be the same. You could even say:
A few expressions that made me smile are here.
and there would be only a slight change in emphasis, significant for style and tone but not for information.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
"Get Rid".............. :roll:
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Bmblbzzz wrote:Verbs agree with subjects not objects. The subject of the verb in this case is there. It's what's known as a dummy subject, it plays a role in the sentence structure but has no meaning in this context. You could say:
Here are a few expressions that made me smile.
and the meaning would be the same. You could even say:
A few expressions that made me smile are here.
and there would be only a slight change in emphasis, significant for style and tone but not for information.



I am aware that the verb agrees with the subject and yet in this instance it doesn't; but remains perfectly acceptable to me as a native speaker.
It would seem that "a few" (and also perhaps "a couple") behave in this way.
So in the case of the example you give, "Here are a few", it would also be acceptable to my ear (and pen) to say, "Here's a few expressions...".

It certainly doesn't "Do my head in"!

Whether it's a dummy as you suggest or whether it behaves as a singular?, I leave up to cleverer linguists than myself.

It may be merely a spoken mutation such as is common in Welsh for example.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I deliberately didn't say whether the dummy there (or here, what, or other word) should take a singular or plural verb. What's certain is the verb can't agree with the object. There are a few ways of doing this and here's a couple of them. etc.

So the initial verb can plural to agree with the few/several/other plural subject of the main sentence or singular to agree with there/here/other dummy subject.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Bmblbzzz wrote:I deliberately didn't say whether the dummy there (or here, what, or other word) should take a singular or plural verb. What's certain is the verb can't agree with the object. There are a few ways of doing this and here's a couple of them. etc.

So the initial verb can plural to agree with the few/several/other plural subject of the main sentence or singular to agree with there/here/other dummy subject.

I have loads of trouble identifying Subjects and Objects at the best of times, esp. in complex sentences.
I am not really interested to be honest.

I never actually mentioned them in relation to my "error" initially.
It was "Vorpal" who initially stated the verb should agree with the Object.
I gave it little thought.

I think it's just a case where language doesn't follow prescribed rules.
In many ways there is great beauty in that, and arguably refinement of meaning possibilities too!

My sentence and the other examples you provide are perfectly acceptable to me and I would not hesitate to use them either in speech or written form.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

The rules should explain the way language works, rather than being something to follow.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Bmblbzzz wrote:The rules should explain the way language works, rather than being something to follow.

Indeed!
The native speaker carries "the grammar" in his/her head.
Bonefishblues
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bonefishblues »

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:The rules should explain the way language works, rather than being something to follow.

Indeed!
The native speaker carries "the grammar" in his/her head.

Indeed. I have virtually no "formal" language literacy, having never been taught it at school but I do know, I think, how the written language works.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Bonefishblues wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Indeed!
The native speaker carries "the grammar" in his/her head.

Indeed. I have virtually no "formal" language literacy, having never been taught it at school but I do know, I think, how the written language works.

To be clear by "the grammar" I meant the grammar of the spoken language.
Which of course moves over, in the main, to the written form.
Likely classic example just discussed.

Whether one is more formal than the other I am uncertain for there are "formal" and "informal" forms in either.
I think!
Bonefishblues
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bonefishblues »

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Indeed!
The native speaker carries "the grammar" in his/her head.

Indeed. I have virtually no "formal" language literacy, having never been taught it at school but I do know, I think, how the written language works.

To be clear by "the grammar" I meant the grammar of the spoken language.
Which of course moves over, in the main, to the written form.
Likely classic example just discussed.

Whether one is more formal than the other I am uncertain for there are "formal" and "informal" forms in either.
I think!

In summary, I can manage to identify yer actual verbs and nouns, but then life starts getting flaky...
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Mick F
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Front editorial just inside the front cover page three in "RoadSmart" the IAM magazine ................ arrived today in the post.

I quote the RoadSmart Editor .............
Very first sentence - except it isn't a sentence.
Sarah Bradley wrote:Want to keep your advanced driving and riding skills sharp and up to date?


It should be:
Do you want to keep your advanced driving and riding skills sharp and up to date?

Drives me crackers! :evil:
I'll be writing in to complain.
Mick F. Cornwall
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