Here's a puzzle for you...

Separate forum to permit easy exclusion when searching for serious information !
Shootist
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Sep 2012, 8:50pm
Location: Derby

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Shootist » 11 Jun 2015, 8:39pm

The JFK conspiracy theorists particularly annoy me. There was a truly impressive two part documentary shown on TV a while back. It featured the work of the man who digitized the Zapruda video frame be frame. That and other evidence proved beyond doubt that JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone from the Texas book Depository. Neither was there anything special about Jack Ruby, other than him being a bit of an idiot The Oliver Stone film has a lot to answer for there. He admitted in interview that he was making a film, not a documentary, and altered facts to improve the script.

Then there is the death of Dodi and Di. Any effort to deconstruct the circumstances of the incident can't help but show that it would be an utterly insane way to try and murder someone, especially when a bullet to the head from long range and a phone call from anyone claiming the kill on behalf of some Islamic Terrorist organisation would be readily believed by anyone.

And then there is the 9/11 conspiracy. That the US government set the whole thing up in order to justify a war to gain control of Middle Eastern oil! How on earth would you even begin to organise such a thing without it being discovered before, or have someone blow the whistle after?

UFOs: The clue is in the 'U'. They're unidentified. Look it up. (And why do they only appear in front of dingbats who have a fascination for anal probes?)

Sure, there are conspiracies, but they all seem to get discovered eventually. Of course, the CT nut will say that the ones whose existence they espouse haven't yet, but they would, wouldn't they?

Moral of the story? Never argue with an idiot. Onlookers may not be able to tell you apart. :roll: :lol:
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby beardy » 11 Jun 2015, 8:47pm

but they all seem to get discovered eventually.


That is something that we havent a hope of knowing, we only know about the ones we have found.
We know nothing about whether or not there are others we havent found and anybody telling us about them remains a nut in the meantime. Sometimes the conspiracy was there for all to see but they wouldnt see it. Jimmy Saville and his connections protecting him.

Shootist
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Sep 2012, 8:50pm
Location: Derby

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Shootist » 11 Jun 2015, 8:51pm

beardy wrote:
but they all seem to get discovered eventually.


That is something that we havent a hope of knowing, we only know about the ones we have found.
We know nothing about whether or not there are others we havent found and anybody telling us about them remains a nut in the meantime. Sometimes the conspiracy was there for all to see but they wouldnt see it. Jimmy Saville and his connections protecting him.


Which proves my point.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby beardy » 11 Jun 2015, 8:53pm

That "conspiracy" was eventually found but we have no way of knowing if we find the bulk of them or just the tip of the iceberg.

Manc33
Posts: 1712
Joined: 25 Apr 2015, 9:37pm

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Manc33 » 11 Jun 2015, 8:55pm

People that come to the conclusion that the Earth is flat are not starting out "believing in" a flat Earth like most people assume, that would make it a religion or cult and of course, unscientific.

They set out to "debunk the flat Earth theory" and quickly find they cannot debunk one single thing, which is a whole other thing to just blindly thinking something "because it is" - which ironically is precisely the system we currently live under - being told Earth is a ball when we are 4 years old with no questioning allowed. That should raise alarm bells immediately (being told you can't question something, I thought this was science?)

In other words the flat Earthers set out to prove things that are currently claimed in science like "There's a curvature to the Earth" for example - and finding there isn't any evidence of it. People insisting on there being a curve there isn't evidence.

Nothing gets answered - like how come planes are not having to constantly tip the nose down to maintain altitude? In theory on a globe the plane would be in outer space after a few hours of maintaining altitude. Then there's the slight problem of the ground they are landing on moving at hundreds of miles an hour - but they "cover" this glaring inaccuracy by telling us everything is relative and we're back to the equally absurd claim that gravity magically makes the atmosphere stick to the Earth while that same gravitational pull doesn't make the moon crash into the Earth.

No wonder science is all compartmentalized. It would only take one open minded biologist to talk to one open minded physicist and they could just take apart most of what passes for science in one sitting. Thing is none are open minded and would rather die than admit they got fooled. The older you are the less chance you'll snap out of it and look at the alternatives. Thats why its the younger ones now that aren't putting up with this stupid cultish thinking anymore.

A claim gets made, it needs proving. Sorry, that's science - done properly. Everything needs proof, no exceptions.
When two cyclists get married, they should throw anodized cable crimps instead of confetti.

Shootist
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Sep 2012, 8:50pm
Location: Derby

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Shootist » 11 Jun 2015, 8:58pm

Manc33 wrote:People that come to the conclusion that the Earth is flat are not starting out "believing in" a flat Earth like most people assume, that would make it a religion or cult and of course, unscientific.

They set out to "debunk the flat Earth theory" and quickly find they cannot debunk one single thing, which is a whole other thing to just blindly thinking something "because it is" - which ironically is precisely the system we currently live under - being told Earth is a ball when we are 4 years old with no questioning allowed. That should raise alarm bells immediately (being told you can't question something, I thought this was science?)

In other words the flat Earthers set out to prove things that are currently claimed in science like "There's a curvature to the Earth" for example - and finding there isn't any evidence of it. People insisting on there being a curve there isn't evidence.

Nothing gets answered - like how come planes are not having to constantly tip the nose down to maintain altitude? In theory on a globe the plane would be in outer space after a few hours of maintaining altitude. Then there's the slight problem of the ground they are landing on moving at hundreds of miles an hour - but they "cover" this glaring inaccuracy by telling us everything is relative and we're back to the equally absurd claim that gravity magically makes the atmosphere stick to the Earth while that same gravitational pull doesn't make the moon crash into the Earth.

No wonder science is all compartmentalized. It would only take one open minded biologist to talk to one open minded physicist and they could just take apart most of what passes for science in one sitting. Thing is none are open minded and would rather die than admit they got fooled. The older you are the less chance you'll snap out of it and look at the alternatives. Thats why its the younger ones now that aren't putting up with this stupid cultish thinking anymore.

A claim gets made, it needs proving. Sorry, that's science - done properly. Everything needs proof, no exceptions.


You prove my point exactly. Thanks. (I'm doing well on this one.)
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby beardy » 11 Jun 2015, 9:05pm

with no questioning allowed. That should raise alarm bells immediately (being told you can't question something, I thought this was science?)

Nothing gets answered - like how come planes are not having to constantly tip the nose down to maintain altitude?


Your questions are being answered here and most good teachers welcome and encourage questions that show pupils are thinking about it.

Your question about the planes was answered didnt you bother reading it?

Anyway the question about a plane being nose down or not and maintaining altitude is TOTALLY unconnected to whether the Earth is flat or spherical, it would have no bearing on the aircraft's flight process.
A smaller airplane is manually trimmed to maintain altitude with the hands off the stick, this is done to maintain altitude on the barometer or the angle of the horizon, you have to constantly correct this as you fly. The size of those corrections is greater than that due to any curvature in the surface below you. I assume the big jets do something similar based on the altimeter in addition to radar, GPs etc.

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby beardy » 11 Jun 2015, 9:09pm

Shootist wrote:
Manc33 wrote:People that come to the conclusion that the Earth is flat are not starting out "believing in" a flat Earth like most people assume, that would make it a religion or cult and of course, unscientific.

They set out to "debunk the flat Earth theory" and quickly find they cannot debunk one single thing, which is a whole other thing to just blindly thinking something "because it is" - which ironically is precisely the system we currently live under - being told Earth is a ball when we are 4 years old with no questioning allowed. That should raise alarm bells immediately (being told you can't question something, I thought this was science?)

In other words the flat Earthers set out to prove things that are currently claimed in science like "There's a curvature to the Earth" for example - and finding there isn't any evidence of it. People insisting on there being a curve there isn't evidence.

Nothing gets answered - like how come planes are not having to constantly tip the nose down to maintain altitude? In theory on a globe the plane would be in outer space after a few hours of maintaining altitude. Then there's the slight problem of the ground they are landing on moving at hundreds of miles an hour - but they "cover" this glaring inaccuracy by telling us everything is relative and we're back to the equally absurd claim that gravity magically makes the atmosphere stick to the Earth while that same gravitational pull doesn't make the moon crash into the Earth.

No wonder science is all compartmentalized. It would only take one open minded biologist to talk to one open minded physicist and they could just take apart most of what passes for science in one sitting. Thing is none are open minded and would rather die than admit they got fooled. The older you are the less chance you'll snap out of it and look at the alternatives. Thats why its the younger ones now that aren't putting up with this stupid cultish thinking anymore.

A claim gets made, it needs proving. Sorry, that's science - done properly. Everything needs proof, no exceptions.


You prove my point exactly. Thanks. (I'm doing well on this one.)


Hardly, your post is based on the assumption that he is wrong, rather than actually countering his points, which supports his argument* rather than your own!

*The argument that people just dismiss and discourage questions, rather than answer them.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18492
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jun 2015, 9:22pm

Manc33 wrote:In other words the flat Earthers set out to prove things that are currently claimed in science like "There's a curvature to the Earth" for example - and finding there isn't any evidence of it. People insisting on there being a curve there isn't evidence.

From a sufficiently high altitude (40 000 feet or more) the curvature of the earth is visible. From 55 000 feet it is obvious. Passengers on the Concorde could see it. Passengers on a normal transatlantic jet have to look for it. It's most easily visible when the sun is on the horizon.

What have I seen from a plane at 40000 feet?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Shootist
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Sep 2012, 8:50pm
Location: Derby

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Shootist » 11 Jun 2015, 9:25pm

beardy wrote:Hardly, your post is based on the assumption that he is wrong, rather than actually countering his points, which supports his argument* rather than your own!

*The argument that people just dismiss and discourage questions, rather than answer them.


Not at all. He has had this explained in simple terms, and further explanations are easily available on the internet. His use of English indicated he has a degree of intelligence, and I am forced to assume he just enjoys reading people's posts that try and knock down his arguments, which are nonsense at best, and firmly in the conspiracy theorist arena. There is an alternative explanation, which I offer for the sake of completeness and not to insult, which is that he lacks the necessary intelligence to understand even the most basic explanations that have been given.

However, in response to you post, and in light of Manc33's apparent understanding of English I will offer this link for his perusal.

http://www.mrsciguy.com/EarthScience/dimen.html

I will also give a more obvious example of the sort of logic he is trying to use. A sniper shoots at a man running away from him. By the time the bullet reaches where the man was, he will have moved, so the bullet has to travel a bit further, but again, when it reaches the point where the man was he has moved further. Because you cannot divide one number by anther and get the answer zero, the bullet cannot possibly his the man who is running away from the bullet. I do not recommend this as being suitable for experiment.

I also offer that his statement "It would only take one open minded biologist to talk to one open minded physicist" is <moderated>. Does he think that such things do not happen? Having said that I fully expect him to request proof of such an apparently impossible event. :roll:
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby meic » 11 Jun 2015, 9:32pm

"It would only take one open minded biologist to talk to one open minded physicist" is incredibly stupid. Does he think that such things do not happen?


Funny that you should mention that. In the century before last (though it was the last century when I was told) the Chemists spent an awful lot of time and effort into breaking the mystery of Crystal Chemistry only to later discover the Physicists had done it fifty years before them. :lol:
Yma o Hyd

Manc33
Posts: 1712
Joined: 25 Apr 2015, 9:37pm

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Manc33 » 11 Jun 2015, 10:23pm

Vorpal wrote:From a sufficiently high altitude (40 000 feet or more) the curvature of the earth is visible. From 55 000 feet it is obvious. Passengers on the Concorde could see it. Passengers on a normal transatlantic jet have to look for it. It's most easily visible when the sun is on the horizon.

What have I seen from a plane at 40000 feet?


Plane windows have curved glass which throws a lot of people off, plus they are on the plane thinking there's going to be a curve there beforehand.

Why is the horizon at eye level at 40,000 feet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjkERI3L3Fw
When two cyclists get married, they should throw anodized cable crimps instead of confetti.

Shootist
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Sep 2012, 8:50pm
Location: Derby

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Shootist » 11 Jun 2015, 10:31pm

Manc33 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:From a sufficiently high altitude (40 000 feet or more) the curvature of the earth is visible. From 55 000 feet it is obvious. Passengers on the Concorde could see it. Passengers on a normal transatlantic jet have to look for it. It's most easily visible when the sun is on the horizon.

What have I seen from a plane at 40000 feet?


Plane windows have curved glass which throws a lot of people off, plus they are on the plane thinking there's going to be a curve there beforehand.

Why is the horizon at eye level at 40,000 feet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjkERI3L3Fw


See what I mean? :roll:
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

jochta
Posts: 406
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 11:54am

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby jochta » 11 Jun 2015, 10:39pm

I'm beginning to think Manc33 is just keeping the argument going. He/she conveniently ignores every piece of evidence posted that answers his/her questions. The comment about the shape of glass in aeroplanes causing the Earth to appear curved is just taking the ****.

I can do my own experiments in my back garden that prove the Moon is spherical. I don't need to rely on what other people tell me. I can prove the hypothesis for myself.

Manc33
Posts: 1712
Joined: 25 Apr 2015, 9:37pm

Re: Here's a puzzle for you...

Postby Manc33 » 11 Jun 2015, 10:52pm

jochta wrote:The comment about the shape of glass in aeroplanes causing the Earth to appear curved is just taking the ****.


Why?

What about the comment about the horizon being at eye level?

Is that as "bad" as the comment about curved windows or does it carry more weight?

This is what always happens, no one answers the more juicy stuff. Me asking for real images of Earth from space is an example of this where it just gets ignored, or all the composites, mock ups and artists impressions (paintings) pointed to are called "genuine", when they aren't.

Then people say "we answer every single thing you ask" lol. No because some real images would be getting posted and I never see them so there's one thing, then the horizon at eye level thing, neither ever get answered.

Its not so much me asking for answers as pointing out there never are any to certain things.

"You could make the circumference of the Earth 25 Million miles, you would still see the horizon start to drop at some point on a globe Earth" - Eric Dubay.

Here's a good one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blot5LYJTnM
Last edited by Manc33 on 11 Jun 2015, 11:10pm, edited 1 time in total.
When two cyclists get married, they should throw anodized cable crimps instead of confetti.