Tongsheng TSDZ2

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
rjb
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Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by rjb »

It's more to increase our range. Swmbo is still recovering from cancer treatment and age is creeping up on us. We can currently only manage at most 30 miles on the Somerset levels, so not many hills and certainly not long although there are some some steep ones. Only 5 years ago we could cope with regular 60 mile rides. :(
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

rjb wrote: 24 Oct 2021, 4:34pm It's more to increase our range. Swmbo is still recovering from cancer treatment and age is creeping up on us. We can currently only manage at most 30 miles on the Somerset levels, so not many hills and certainly not long although there are some some steep ones. Only 5 years ago we could cope with regular 60 mile rides. :(
I was only pulling your leg. I think electric assist on bikes is a wonderful thing if it means that people can use bikes more. I built a cargo bike a couple of years ago which I've recently fitted electric assist to. It certainly makes hills a lot easier when the all up load of bike, rider and load is around 180kg!
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willcee
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by willcee »

As regards fitting either motor with an other than perfectly smooth round bracket shell just forget that.. there's no way sensibly to achieve full through axle delivery because its designed tight and how do i know so well.... I bought a new Whyte gravel frame which unknown to me was a later model not the one i thought was coming it was well priced but set up for hidden cabling and not that well set up either, they barrelled the bracket shell to allow cable clearance, i had both motors to hand and neither would go through.. i ended up fitting a new Mahle X35 rear Hub with Bafang controller and its better on the road than a friends carbon Orbea..so it worked out in the end...
hemo
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by hemo »

Both the BBS and Tdzs can be fitted with a double 34T the smallest on can go, somewhere I have even seen a triple fitted.
iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

hemo wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 12:34am Both the BBS and Tdzs can be fitted with a double 34T the smallest on can go, somewhere I have even seen a triple fitted.
Yes but what is the chainline like? As I understand it the std chainring has an offset profile to help with the poor chainline. Therefore fitting a smaller chainring makes the issue even worse.
the snail
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by the snail »

In my experience the range of gearing needed is a lot less with the motor fitted. I converted my tourer with 28 38 48 rings and I get on fine with the standard chainring. I have 11-32 on the back and I can get up 1:6 hills no problem, even recently when I couldn't use my bottom 2 gears due to knackered derailleur. Mine is the 500w version though. The 48v version is supposed to perform better vs the 36v. I'm not sure about availability of the 250w version if whoosh isn't selling them anymore. I get about 60 miles range I think on average mostly on level 2 assist, turbo mode up hills, although that's a bit of a guess as I never run the battery down(17.5Ah) I mostly do 10-20 mile rides, and the battery often shows as full for a couple of rides. I would probably have been fine with a 12Ah battery tbh.
hemo
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by hemo »

With a double ring set up opt for hub gears, no issue using my alfine 8 this way.
hemo
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by hemo »

UK supplied 48v 250w are available other then Woosh.
iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

the snail wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 11:27am In my experience the range of gearing needed is a lot less with the motor fitted. I converted my tourer with 28 38 48 rings and I get on fine with the standard chainring. I have 11-32 on the back and I can get up 1:6 hills no problem, even recently when I couldn't use my bottom 2 gears due to knackered derailleur. Mine is the 500w version though. The 48v version is supposed to perform better vs the 36v. I'm not sure about availability of the 250w version if whoosh isn't selling them anymore. I get about 60 miles range I think on average mostly on level 2 assist, turbo mode up hills, although that's a bit of a guess as I never run the battery down(17.5Ah) I mostly do 10-20 mile rides, and the battery often shows as full for a couple of rides. I would probably have been fine with a 12Ah battery tbh.
You do make the point that you have an illegal 500W motor which the OP probably won't want to fit and also it is fitted to a solo bike, so probably half the weight the weight of a tandem with riders. So I'm not really sure how helpful your experience is (this is not meant to be a dig at you at all, just an observation). Why do you say that Woosh are no longer selling a 250W version? As far as I'm aware they only sell 250W kits.
the snail
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by the snail »

I could be wrong, but I thought the 250w motor was a special order for Whoosh, so if they aren't selling it, I'm not sure who is. Most online sellers offer 350,500,750w versions. The actual motor unit is identical for all 48v versions, just different firmware I think. I don't use anything like full power, so I doubt the real world performance will be much different with a 250w rated motor.
iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

the snail wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 11:53am I could be wrong, but I thought the 250w motor was a special order for Whoosh, so if they aren't selling it, I'm not sure who is. Most online sellers offer 350,500,750w versions. The actual motor unit is identical for all 48v versions, just different firmware I think. I don't use anything like full power, so I doubt the real world performance will be much different with a 250w rated motor.
Woosh only list 250W motors on their site and I would assume that they only sell 250W kits as they are serious about what they do, and selling kits that can't be used legally other than on private land with the landowners permission is irresponsible and will only harm their business. I have bought a 48V hub kit from them and fitted it to my cargo bike. When it is loaded it is probably about the same weight as our tandem with both of us. I have no doubts that this would work well on a tandem as it is a high torque motor designed to develop its power at low speeds. I would expect a mid-drive set up to be a useful addition for a tandem but I would be worried about the internal gears coping with the load. It was for this reason that I opted for a rear wheel kit for the cargo bike.
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bikes4two
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by bikes4two »

"
  • There's a lot of confusion about the 250w thing - the legislation in the uk is taken from EN15194 (have a read if you dare) and the power rating is for "Maximum continuous rated power.
  • So where does one stand with peak power then?
  • And as has been said, the power output can be tweaked in the TSDZ2 using Open Source Firmeware (OSF) give the Pedelec UK forum a peek if you want more info.
  • In my firmware settings I've limited the controller to deliver 15amp if the need arises and I use a 36v battery so a 'peak' of 540W (or 42*15=640w for a freshly charged battery) and my Sales Receipt said I bought a 36v 250w motor and I'm happy with that.(
  • As far as I'm aware, the TSDZ2 250w, 350w, 500w and 750W motor are virtually the same apart from the firmware settings (although I think the higher of the two rated ones may have a different number of windings?)
  • The different power outputs come about by virtue of the battery fitted e.g. 36v, 48v, and 52v and of course the firmware settings
  • And who on earth in the 'enforcement' community is going to have the roadside tools to tell the difference
  • If you're worried about such things as the power out put, search ebay and Ali Express and order up a suitable label
  • Yup, it is as daft as that!
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iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

bikes4two wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:04pm "
  • There's a lot of confusion about the 250w thing - the legislation in the uk is taken from EN15194 (have a read if you dare) and the power rating is for "Maximum continuous rated power.
  • So where does one stand with peak power then?
  • And as has been said, the power output can be tweaked in the TSDZ2 using Open Source Firmeware (OSF) give the Pedelec UK forum a peek if you want more info.
  • In my firmware settings I've limited the controller to deliver 15amp if the need arises and I use a 36v battery so a 'peak' of 540W (or 42*15=640w for a freshly charged battery) and my Sales Receipt said I bought a 36v 250w motor and I'm happy with that.(
  • As far as I'm aware, the TSDZ2 250w, 350w, 500w and 750W motor are virtually the same apart from the firmware settings (although I think the higher of the two rated ones may have a different number of windings?)
  • The different power outputs come about by virtue of the battery fitted e.g. 36v, 48v, and 52v and of course the firmware settings
  • And who on earth in the 'enforcement' community is going to have the roadside tools to tell the difference
  • If you're worried about such things as the power out put, search ebay and Ali Express and order up a suitable label
  • Yup, it is as daft as that!
You are of course correct inasmuch as the 250W rating is a bit of a joke and very confusing. My 48V hub uses a 17A controller so in theory can run a max power of 48X17=816W, although of course there will be losses due to heat and friction. However as you also state the more powerful motors probably do have heavier duty windings in order to cope with being run at higher power outputs continuously. Nonetheless I would be very wary of running any system that didn't have a legit EU 250 rating (and not a sticker bought on Ebay) as in the event of an accident you could find your 3rd party insurance invalid, if you have it (and you should), and seriously on the wrong side of the law. Likewise for the same reason it is highly inadvisable to adjust the firmware to allow the electric assist to work above 25kph, which IMO is totally unnecessary anyway.
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bikes4two
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by bikes4two »

  • I couldn't agree more with you about the desirability of legal conformity
  • But the basic fact remains that many many ebikes on the roads today are not operating within the legal parameters and it is a simple fact that there is no evidence (or at least visability) of the law punishing those who do ride such bikes, and until that situation changes, many will ignore the limits (just as they do speeding in cars and so on). *
  • Again, if you read the pedelec forum and Endless Sphere, people are quite open and brazen about their motor's power
  • With the world going to hell on a hand cart over global warming and a long list of other worrying world events, I guess there are plenty of other 'fish to fry' before the pedelec community come under the watchful eye of the law?
*I'd be very pleased to hear of cases of prosecution of illegal pedelecs/riders - maybe worth a separate thread?
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

bikes4two wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:42pm
  • I couldn't agree more with you about the desirability of legal conformity
  • But the basic fact remains that many many ebikes on the roads today are not operating within the legal parameters and it is a simple fact that there is no evidence (or at least visability) of the law punishing those who do ride such bikes, and until that situation changes, many will ignore the limits (just as they do speeding in cars and so on). *
  • Again, if you read the pedelec forum and Endless Sphere, people are quite open and brazen about their motor's power
  • With the world going to hell on a hand cart over global warming and a long list of other worrying world events, I guess there are plenty of other 'fish to fry' before the pedelec community come under the watchful eye of the law?
*I'd be very pleased to hear of cases of prosecution of illegal pedelecs/riders - maybe worth a separate thread?
I don't think the police are at all interested in checking ebikes for conformity, even though I think they should judging by the speed I've seen some travelling at on shared pedestrian and cycle paths, but when a pedestrian for example gets seriously injured it's at that point that the solicitors are going to get interested.
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